On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> <eom>

waiting has the diphtong of Tamil [seIdAn] (he did) or [neI] (ghee).
wading has a longer diphthong; to the Indian ear, it resembles a pure vowel, the one in [me:lE] (above)
but a similar long diphthong can be found in some Malayalis' pronunciation of /vejil/ (heat from
sunrays) as [veI:l] making it sound like English <veil>.

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > <eom>
> >
> > waiting has the diphtong of Tamil [seIdAn] (he did) or [neI] (ghee).
> > wading has a longer diphthong; to the Indian ear, it resembles a pure vowel, the one in [me:lE] (above)
> > but a similar long diphthong can be found in some Malayalis' pronunciation of /vejil/ (heat from
> > sunrays) as [veI:l] making it sound like English <veil>.
>
> do wait and way have different vowels in core dialects of English?
>
Stick to <waiting> and <wading>.
The diphthong is a single phoneme /eI/.

It has the same realization in both words in UK English.
The t & d are pronounced differently in UK English.

Its realization has different lengths in US English which is how they can
distinguish between <waiting> and <wading>. They can't use a t/d
difference to distinguish them since that difference is neutralized in
US English.
>
> they may or may not - if they are different no dictionary recognizes the vowel in wait.
>
Dictionaries tend to give phonemic transcriptions, so the phonetic
descriptions I gave wouldn't appear in a typical dictionary. According
to phonemic transcriptions in US dictionaries, the distinction is t vs d
which is quite inaccurate for typical US English.

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 5:39:49 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 12:16:09 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > > > <eom>
> > > >
> > > > waiting has the diphtong of Tamil [seIdAn] (he did) or [neI] (ghee)..
> > > > wading has a longer diphthong; to the Indian ear, it resembles a pure vowel, the one in [me:lE] (above)
> > > > but a similar long diphthong can be found in some Malayalis' pronunciation of /vejil/ (heat from
> > > > sunrays) as [veI:l] making it sound like English <veil>.
> > >
> > > do wait and way have different vowels in core dialects of English?
> > >
> > Stick to <waiting> and <wading>.
> > The diphthong is a single phoneme /eI/.
> >
> > It has the same realization in both words in UK English.
> > The t & d are pronounced differently in UK English.
> >
> > Its realization has different lengths in US English which is how they can
> > distinguish between <waiting> and <wading>. They can't use a t/d
> > difference to distinguish them since that difference is neutralized in
> > US English.
> > >
> > > they may or may not - if they are different no dictionary recognizes the vowel in wait.
> > >
> > Dictionaries tend to give phonemic transcriptions, so the phonetic
> > descriptions I gave wouldn't appear in a typical dictionary. According
> > to phonemic transcriptions in US dictionaries, the distinction is t vs d
> > which is quite inaccurate for typical US English.
> listen to the AmE version of melee at the OALD
>
> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/melee?q=melee
>
> ˈmeɪleɪ/
>
> I hear monophthongal long a as the first vowel and second vowel as in paid,laid,weight etc.
>
> I guess monophthongal long a is not an independent phoneme in core English dialacts.
>
/eI/ is a phoneme in English. I've noted before that its long articulation sounds like [e:] to
the Indian ear. We hear it wrong; Anglophones use a diphtong.
>
> thats why for Indians it is inconceivable that Mary Marry merry can be confused. and ALL are different from fairy.
>
In Mary, I have [E:], the same as in Fairy and Sara, but most Indians have [e:].

In school, I had a Hindi short story where a cow named /me:ri:/ saved her
master from a tiger by sacrificing herself, so there must be Indians for whom
the 2nd syllable of Mary too has a tense vowel. A terminal /i:/ or /u:/ in Hindi
is necessarily tense and optionally long; the Hindi pronunciation of the Jungle
Book bear is [bA:lu].

In Bob Dylan's song, Sara is pronounced two ways, with [E:] and [&:] in "Sara o Sara".
The lyrics say "Sara oh Sara" but I assume it's vocative which I spell without <h>;
I make a distinction between "O God" and "Oh God".

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 6:27:42 PM UTC-7, S K wrote:

> In the Indian languages I know, all vowels are tense. English is plagued by lax vowels that make its sounds fuzzy and easily confusable.
>
> Tamil short e,i,o,u are not schwas - they are clearly articulated short versions of the corresponding long vowel. short and long a also have a difference in quality [but-father] but short a is not a schwa.
>
> Why indo-european sanskrit/hindi lack short e and o (they are partially back in hindi near [h]) while neighboring Tamil has them is a mystery.

Many languages can be phonemicized as having three basic
vowels - i,a and u - with e and o arising from more elaborate
situations such as - ey or aw. If I remember Whitney correctly
Vedic Sanskrit was such a language,

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:57:42 AM UTC+5:30, S K wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:56:23 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 5:39:49 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 12:16:09 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> > > > > > > <eom>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > waiting has the diphtong of Tamil [seIdAn] (he did) or [neI] (ghee).
> > > > > > wading has a longer diphthong; to the Indian ear, it resembles a pure vowel, the one in [me:lE] (above)
> > > > > > but a similar long diphthong can be found in some Malayalis' pronunciation of /vejil/ (heat from
> > > > > > sunrays) as [veI:l] making it sound like English <veil>.
> > > > >
> > > > > do wait and way have different vowels in core dialects of English?
> > > > >
> > > > Stick to <waiting> and <wading>.
> > > > The diphthong is a single phoneme /eI/.
> > > >
> > > > It has the same realization in both words in UK English.
> > > > The t & d are pronounced differently in UK English.
> > > >
> > > > Its realization has different lengths in US English which is how they can
> > > > distinguish between <waiting> and <wading>. They can't use a t/d
> > > > difference to distinguish them since that difference is neutralized in
> > > > US English.
> > > > >
> > > > > they may or may not - if they are different no dictionary recognizes the vowel in wait.
> > > > >
> > > > Dictionaries tend to give phonemic transcriptions, so the phonetic
> > > > descriptions I gave wouldn't appear in a typical dictionary. According
> > > > to phonemic transcriptions in US dictionaries, the distinction is t vs d
> > > > which is quite inaccurate for typical US English.
> > > listen to the AmE version of melee at the OALD
> > >
> > > https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/melee?q=melee
> > >
> > > ˈmeɪleɪ/
> > >
> > > I hear monophthongal long a as the first vowel and second vowel as in paid,laid,weight etc.
> > >
> > > I guess monophthongal long a is not an independent phoneme in core English dialacts.
> > >
> > /eI/ is a phoneme in English. I've noted before that its long articulation sounds like [e:] to
> > the Indian ear. We hear it wrong; Anglophones use a diphthong.
> > >
> > > thats why for Indians it is inconceivable that Mary Marry merry can be confused. and ALL are different from fairy.
> > >
> > In Mary, I have [E:], the same as in Fairy and Sara, but most Indians have [e:].
> >
> > In school, I had a Hindi short story where a cow named /me:ri:/ saved her
> > master from a tiger by sacrificing herself, so there must be Indians for whom
> > the 2nd syllable of Mary too has a tense vowel. A terminal /i:/ or /u:/ in Hindi
> > is necessarily tense and optionally long; the Hindi pronunciation of the Jungle
> > Book bear is [bA:lu].
> >
> > In Bob Dylan's song, Sara is pronounced two ways, with [E:] and [&:] in "Sara o Sara".
> > The lyrics say "Sara oh Sara" but I assume it's vocative which I spell without <h>;
> > I make a distinction between "O God" and "Oh God".

>> In the Indian languages I know, all vowels are tense. English is plagued by lax vowels that make its sounds fuzzy and easily confusable.
>
In the Ruki rule, the i is lax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruki_sound_law
In the Panjabi pronunciation of Sikh, i is lax.
In Tamil idu, adu (this. that), the last vowel is lax.
>
> Tamil short e,i,o,u are not schwas - they are clearly articulated short versions of the corresponding long vowel. short and long a also have a difference in quality [but-father] but short a is not a schwa.
>
In Tingalkazhamai, al is commonly spoken as a schwa.
In nalla pATTu (good song), the last vowels are a schwa and a lax U.
>
> Why indo-european sanskrit/hindi lack short e and o (they are partially back in hindi near [h]) while neighboring Tamil has them is a mystery.
>
I seem to remember reading that IE had them but Sanskrit lost them by changing them to a.