On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
> Sender:
> Followup-To:
> Distribution:
> Organization: University of California at Berkeley
> Keywords:
> Cc:
> It must be obvious from the discussion that has gone on about this
> topic that the if the term "native language", is to have any meaning
> at all, the meaning cannot be the literal one, since we are not born
> speaking a language. "Native" is a word that is easily misused, as,
> for example, in "Native American" when "Indigenous" or
> "Aboriginal" is meant.
> But the term seems to be here to stay, and if confusion--in those cases
> where the meaning is not self-evident--is to be minimized then we
> might as well stick as close as possible to the literal meaning; the
> term would then have to refer to the first language spoken, regardless
> of whether competence in the language is maintained, or of whether
> a language acquired later takes over as the _primary_ language, that
> is, the language in which one feels most comfortable.
> For myself, I can't imagine regarding anything but Polish as my
> native language, although it stopped being my primary language
> around the age of ten, and by now it ranks about ninth in my
> language repertory in terms of competence.
> There is no reason why a person cannot have more than one native
> language, if such a person acquires two or more languages, without
> a clear predominance of one over the other(s), in early childhood.
> This may be the result of atypical circumstances (different languages
> spoken within the family, or one language spoken at home and
> another outside), but in some cases it may be the norm, as in
> exogamous tribal societies, or in Barcelona, where there are hundreds
> of thousands of people who cannot recall a time when they didn't
> speak both Catalan and Spanish, and who consider both to be their
> "native" languages. As regards "primary" status, many Catalans feel
> more comfortable speaking in Catalan but reading and writing in
> Spanish. So, they have two primary languages as well.
> Coby

> What is a native language?
What is a native?

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
> > Sender:
> > Followup-To:
> > Distribution:
> > Organization: University of California at Berkeley
> > Keywords:
> > Cc:
> > It must be obvious from the discussion that has gone on about this
> > topic that the if the term "native language", is to have any meaning
> > at all, the meaning cannot be the literal one, since we are not born
> > speaking a language. "Native" is a word that is easily misused, as,
> > for example, in "Native American" when "Indigenous" or
> > "Aboriginal" is meant.
> > But the term seems to be here to stay, and if confusion--in those cases
> > where the meaning is not self-evident--is to be minimized then we
> > might as well stick as close as possible to the literal meaning; the
> > term would then have to refer to the first language spoken, regardless
> > of whether competence in the language is maintained, or of whether
> > a language acquired later takes over as the _primary_ language, that
> > is, the language in which one feels most comfortable.
> > For myself, I can't imagine regarding anything but Polish as my
> > native language, although it stopped being my primary language
> > around the age of ten, and by now it ranks about ninth in my
> > language repertory in terms of competence.
> > There is no reason why a person cannot have more than one native
> > language, if such a person acquires two or more languages, without
> > a clear predominance of one over the other(s), in early childhood.
> > This may be the result of atypical circumstances (different languages
> > spoken within the family, or one language spoken at home and
> > another outside), but in some cases it may be the norm, as in
> > exogamous tribal societies, or in Barcelona, where there are hundreds
> > of thousands of people who cannot recall a time when they didn't
> > speak both Catalan and Spanish, and who consider both to be their
> > "native" languages. As regards "primary" status, many Catalans feel
> > more comfortable speaking in Catalan but reading and writing in
> > Spanish. So, they have two primary languages as well.
> > Coby
> > What is a native language?
> What is a native?

In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
where one lives.

Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 8:13:05 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
> > > Sender:
> > > Followup-To:
> > > Distribution:
> > > Organization: University of California at Berkeley
> > > Keywords:
> > > Cc:
> > > It must be obvious from the discussion that has gone on about this
> > > topic that the if the term "native language", is to have any meaning
> > > at all, the meaning cannot be the literal one, since we are not born
> > > speaking a language. "Native" is a word that is easily misused, as,
> > > for example, in "Native American" when "Indigenous" or
> > > "Aboriginal" is meant.
> > > But the term seems to be here to stay, and if confusion--in those cases
> > > where the meaning is not self-evident--is to be minimized then we
> > > might as well stick as close as possible to the literal meaning; the
> > > term would then have to refer to the first language spoken, regardless
> > > of whether competence in the language is maintained, or of whether
> > > a language acquired later takes over as the _primary_ language, that
> > > is, the language in which one feels most comfortable.
> > > For myself, I can't imagine regarding anything but Polish as my
> > > native language, although it stopped being my primary language
> > > around the age of ten, and by now it ranks about ninth in my
> > > language repertory in terms of competence.
> > > There is no reason why a person cannot have more than one native
> > > language, if such a person acquires two or more languages, without
> > > a clear predominance of one over the other(s), in early childhood.
> > > This may be the result of atypical circumstances (different languages
> > > spoken within the family, or one language spoken at home and
> > > another outside), but in some cases it may be the norm, as in
> > > exogamous tribal societies, or in Barcelona, where there are hundreds
> > > of thousands of people who cannot recall a time when they didn't
> > > speak both Catalan and Spanish, and who consider both to be their
> > > "native" languages. As regards "primary" status, many Catalans feel
> > > more comfortable speaking in Catalan but reading and writing in
> > > Spanish. So, they have two primary languages as well.
> > > Coby
> > > What is a native language?
> > What is a native?
>
> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> where one lives.
>
> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?

In the industrialized world where non-profits exercise a strangle-hold on who "should" say what and when? It may be anyone's guess.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 05:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
>have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.

Only if both your parents are women. If one is a man, you'd have a
mother tongue and a father tongue.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 9:54:49 PM UTC+5:30, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 05:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> >have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> Only if both your parents are women. If one is a man, you'd have a
> mother tongue and a father tongue.
>
> --
English is apparently a father tongue. Celtic mothers passed little of their
language to their children by Germanic fathers, according to something I read.
The veracity of that claim is addressed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonicisms_in_English

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 2:39:27 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 9:54:49 PM UTC+5:30, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 05:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> > >have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> > Only if both your parents are women. If one is a man, you'd have a
> > mother tongue and a father tongue.
>
> English is apparently a father tongue.

Well, having a people there who had a king named 'Prasutagus', no. You may not fully be able to claim that English is a mother tongue with all that Latin floating around in British history.

* Dingbat:

> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:

>>> What is a native language?

>> What is a native?
>
> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> where one lives.
>
> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?

"Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
"first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.

The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the strongest.
By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German and Vietnamese,
but his preferred language has long been English (the language everyone
in the family and almost everyone in the neighborhood understood), and
his French is probably also currently stronger than his German or
Vietnamese.

--
Jib the boom! Poop the deck!
Rattle the hatch! Main the sail! Pepper the mints!
Anchors aweigh in the morn!
-- Muppet Show sea shanty (Ep.220)

* Dingbat <914c1062-2d2c-4962-9f42-363953ea1f84n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:39:23 -0700 (PDT):
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 9:54:49 PM UTC+5:30, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 05:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>> >In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One
>> >can have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother
>> >tongues.

In the Indian colonial setting "native" was not so complicated - natives
were those who are not the colonials. (remember NN "name of native"
rather than the latin). When the natives were recruited into the
workforce and required to migrate as part of their work, the "native
place" would refer to the place of their birth and the native language
to the languge spoken at their native place.

That was the Indian perspective but I beleive it is entirely English:
if you can find the punch cartooon -

ANOTHER BIT FROM THE MINING DISTRICTS/
FIRST POLITE NATIVE: Who's 'im Bill/
SECOND DITTO: A stranger!/
FIRST DITTO: 'Eave 'arf a brick at 'im./

>> Only if both your parents are women. If one is a man, you'd have a
>> mother tongue and a father tongue.
> English is apparently a father tongue. Celtic mothers passed little of
> their language to their children by Germanic fathers, according to
> something I read. The veracity of that claim is addressed here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonicisms_in_English

-- "Your mother was an Hittite and your father an Amorite" (God on the
Hebrew), Ezek. 16:45)

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * Dingbat:
> > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
> >>> What is a native language?
>
> >> What is a native?
> >
> > In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> > have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> > We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> > could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> > where one lives.
> >
> > Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
>
That too would be confusing in India where 1st. 2nd and 3rd languages
are languages taught in school.

Three Language Formula according to NEP 2020
But no language will be imposed on any State. - To learn three languages will
be the choice of States, regions, and students themselves, as long as at least
two of the three languages are native to India. 6-Nov-2021

More at the wikip:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-language_formula
>
> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the strongest.
> By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German and Vietnamese,
> but his preferred language has long been English (the language everyone
> in the family and almost everyone in the neighborhood understood), and
> his French is probably also currently stronger than his German or
> Vietnamese.
>

On 3/15/2022 5:04 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Dingbat:
>> bruce bowser wrote:
>>> Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:

>>>> What is a native language?

>>> What is a native?

>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue.
>> One can have two mother tongues if one' parents have different
>> mother tongues. We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of
>> usage examples, it could seem to mean the language of one's
>> neighbors native to the place where one lives.

>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?

> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
> sometimes.

You put the phrase at the beginning of a sentence, which obscures the
distinction that I make. I would write "Native language" for, say,
Cree, but my native language is English.

Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly "First
Nations language" among the cognoscenti.

> Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a "first
> language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the
> neighborhood kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages
> in the same way any more, and what you'll do will be second language
> acquisition.

> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the
> strongest. By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German
> and Vietnamese, but his preferred language has long been English
> (the language everyone in the family and almost everyone in the
> neighborhood understood), and his French is probably also currently
> stronger than his German or Vietnamese.

On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:

> On 3/15/2022 5:04 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Dingbat:
>>> bruce bowser wrote:
>>>> Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
>>>>> What is a native language?
>
>>>> What is a native?
>
>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue.
>>> One can have two mother tongues if one' parents have different
>>> mother tongues. We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of
>>> usage examples, it could seem to mean the language of one's
>>> neighbors native to the place where one lives.
>
>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>
>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples sometimes.
>
> You put the phrase at the beginning of a sentence, which obscures the
> distinction that I make. I would write "Native language" for, say,
> Cree, but my native language is English.
>
> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly "First
> Nations language" among the cognoscenti.

Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used elsewhere?
>
>> Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a "first
>> language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
>> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
>> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
>> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
>> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
>
>> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the
>> strongest. By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German
>> and Vietnamese, but his preferred language has long been English
>> (the language everyone in the family and almost everyone in the
>> neighborhood understood), and his French is probably also currently
>> stronger than his German or Vietnamese.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

* CDB:

> On 3/15/2022 5:04 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Dingbat:
>>> bruce bowser wrote:
>>>> Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
>>>>> What is a native language?
>
>>>> What is a native?
>
>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue.
>>> One can have two mother tongues if one' parents have different
>>> mother tongues. We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of
>>> usage examples, it could seem to mean the language of one's
>>> neighbors native to the place where one lives.
>
>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>
>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
>> sometimes.
>
> You put the phrase at the beginning of a sentence, which obscures the
> distinction that I make. I would write "Native language" for, say,
> Cree, but my native language is English.

Capitalization, ok. The possessive also helps disambiguate in a
sentence, but out of context, it can be harder.
> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly "First
> Nations language" among the cognoscenti.

In Canada. I recently heard someone from the US use "First Nations", but
even if that caought on, it'd still be specific to North America.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 2022-03-16 06:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:
>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind.  Nowadays it's undoubtedly "First
>> Nations language" among the cognoscenti.
>
> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used elsewhere?

I would be VERY surprised if the term is used anywhere but Canada.

* Dingbat:

> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Dingbat:
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>>
>>>>> What is a native language?
>>
>>>> What is a native?
>>>
>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
>>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
>>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
>>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
>>> where one lives.
>>>
>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
>> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
>> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
>> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
>> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
>> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
>> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
>>
> That too would be confusing in India where 1st. 2nd and 3rd languages
> are languages taught in school.
>
> Three Language Formula according to NEP 2020
> But no language will be imposed on any State. - To learn three languages will
> be the choice of States, regions, and students themselves, as long as at least
> two of the three languages are native to India. 6-Nov-2021
>
> More at the wikip:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-language_formula

Growing up in a monolingual country made that easier of course. We were
being taught a 1st, 2nd or 3rd *foreign* language, but "German" was just
"German" for everyone.

In Japan, the analogous subject is called kokugo, "language of the
land". If you call it "nihongo", that's an outsider's perspective -
lessons in "nihongo" are always Japanese as a second language.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english

On 3/16/2022 8:36 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> CDB said:
>> Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Dingbat:
>>>> bruce bowser wrote:
>>>>> Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:

>>>>>> What is a native language?

>>>>> What is a native?

>>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother
>>>> tongue. One can have two mother tongues if one' parents have
>>>> different mother tongues. We didn't use "native language"; in
>>>> the absence of usage examples, it could seem to mean the
>>>> language of one's neighbors native to the place where one
>>>> lives.

>>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?

>>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
>>> sometimes.

>> You put the phrase at the beginning of a sentence, which obscures
>> the distinction that I make. I would write "Native language" for,
>> say, Cree, but my native language is English.

>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly
>> "First Nations language" among the cognoscenti.

> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used
> elsewhere?

(Urban) Canada is where the cognoscenti come from. Like Brazil.

[polyglossia]

--
I eat a few Brazil Cognoscenti every day, for the selenium.

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Dingbat:
> > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
> >>> What is a native language?
> >> What is a native?
> > In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> > have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> > We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> > could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> > where one lives.
> > Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>
> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples

Not really.

One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
"First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)

> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.

You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
other languages later.

> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the strongest.
> By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German and Vietnamese,
> but his preferred language has long been English (the language everyone
> in the family and almost everyone in the neighborhood understood), and
> his French is probably also currently stronger than his German or
> Vietnamese.

Which would be why we generally don't say "native language," but "native
speaker."

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Dingbat:
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
>>>>> What is a native language?
>>>> What is a native?
>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
>>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
>>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
>>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
>>> where one lives.
>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>>
>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
>
> Not really.
>
> One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
> "First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
> museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
> dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
> be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
> proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)
>
>> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
>> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
>> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
>> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
>> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
>> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
>
> You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
> other languages later.

Not me, but the people who coined the well established technical term
"Second Language Acquisition".

Also, nobody should seriously propose that First Language Acquisition is
not a form of learning.

>> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the strongest.
>> By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German and Vietnamese,
>> but his preferred language has long been English (the language everyone
>> in the family and almost everyone in the neighborhood understood), and
>> his French is probably also currently stronger than his German or
>> Vietnamese.
>
> Which would be why we generally don't say "native language," but "native
> speaker."

I agree that talking about "native speakers" is preferable, but don't
think my paragraph contained the main reason for that.

--
Motives? Who cares for motives? Humans, perhaps.
-- Klingon Ambassador Kell

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 1:22:59 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Dingbat:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
> >>>>> What is a native language?
> >>>> What is a native?
> >>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> >>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues..
> >>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> >>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> >>> where one lives.
> >>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
> >> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
> > Not really.
> > One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
> > "First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
> > museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
> > dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
> > be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
> > proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)
> >> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
> >> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> >> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> >> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
> >> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
> >> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
> > You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
> > other languages later.
>
> Not me, but the people who coined the well established technical term
> "Second Language Acquisition".
>
> Also, nobody should seriously propose that First Language Acquisition is
> not a form of learning.

Native-language acquisition and foreign-language learning are qualitatively
utterly different.

It is impossible for a human child to avoid acquiring at least one language
that is heard in its environment and spoken to it. It can be very difficult and
even impossible to learn a new language, even in the most exigent circumstances.

> >> The languages learned from the parents aren't necessarily the strongest.
> >> By your definition, my son's mother tongues are German and Vietnamese,
> >> but his preferred language has long been English (the language everyone
> >> in the family and almost everyone in the neighborhood understood), and
> >> his French is probably also currently stronger than his German or
> >> Vietnamese.
> > Which would be why we generally don't say "native language," but "native
> > speaker."
>
> I agree that talking about "native speakers" is preferable, but don't
> think my paragraph contained the main reason for that.

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 3:22:25 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 1:22:59 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:
> > > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > >> * Dingbat:
> > >>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
> > >>>>> What is a native language?
> > >>>> What is a native?
> > >>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> > >>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> > >>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> > >>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> > >>> where one lives.
> > >>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
> > >> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
> > > Not really.
> > > One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
> > > "First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
> > > museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
> > > dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
> > > be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
> > > proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)
> > >> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
> > >> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> > >> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> > >> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
> > >> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
> > >> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
> > > You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
> > > other languages later.
> >
> > Not me, but the people who coined the well established technical term
> > "Second Language Acquisition".
> >
> > Also, nobody should seriously propose that First Language Acquisition is
> > not a form of learning.
>
> Native-language acquisition and foreign-language learning are qualitatively
> utterly different.

Not if the foreign language in question is near-enough to the learner around the time of native-language acquisition: like with a child growing up on the border of two nations where the two languages are spoken frequently enough.

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 3:29:12 PM UTC-4, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 3:22:25 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 1:22:59 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > > * Peter T. Daniels:
> > > > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > > >> * Dingbat:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> > > >>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:

> > > >>>>> What is a native language?
> > > >>>> What is a native?
> > > >>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
> > > >>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
> > > >>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
> > > >>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
> > > >>> where one lives.
> > > >>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
> > > >> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
> > > > Not really.
> > > > One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
> > > > "First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
> > > > museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
> > > > dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
> > > > be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
> > > > proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)
> > > >> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
> > > >> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
> > > >> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
> > > >> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
> > > >> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
> > > >> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
> > > > You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
> > > > other languages later.
> > > Not me, but the people who coined the well established technical term
> > > "Second Language Acquisition".
> > > Also, nobody should seriously propose that First Language Acquisition is
> > > not a form of learning.
> > Native-language acquisition and foreign-language learning are qualitatively
> > utterly different.
>
> Not if the foreign language in question is near-enough to the learner around the time of native-language acquisition: like with a child growing up on the border of two nations where the two languages are spoken frequently enough.

There is no known limit on how many languages a child can acquire natively,
no matter how similar or different they are to each other. The child only has
to be part of as many speech communities as there are languages available.

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 1:22:59 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Dingbat:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 1:28:36 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote:
>
>>>>>>> What is a native language?
>>>>>> What is a native?
>>>>> In India, one's own language spoken at home is a mother tongue. One can
>>>>> have two mother tongues if one' parents have different mother tongues.
>>>>> We didn't use "native language"; in the absence of usage examples, it
>>>>> could seem to mean the language of one's neighbors native to the place
>>>>> where one lives.
>>>>> Why do linguists call a mother tongue a native language?
>>>> "Native language" can also mean a language of indigenous peoples
>>> Not really.
>>> One might suppose that a Canadian usage, if you hadn't come up with
>>> "First Nations." (I first encountered that term in 1994 at the UBC anthropology
>>> museum, where it struck me as quite odd, because that museum is
>>> dedicated almost entirely to peoples of Na-Dené languages, who would
>>> be the "Second Nations" according to the (at the time) well-known
>>> proposal of Joseph Greenberg.)
>>>> sometimes. Actually, linguists usually call what you're talking about a
>>>> "first language" these days. That's any language you acquire at a very
>>>> young age, in a process called first language acquisition. It doesn't
>>>> matter from whom. Many children learn languages from the neighborhood
>>>> kids, TV etc. Later in life, you can't learn languages in the same way
>>>> any more, and what you'll do will be second language acquisition.
>>> You've confused the verbs -- we _acquire_ first languages and _learn_
>>> other languages later.
>>
>> Not me, but the people who coined the well established technical term
>> "Second Language Acquisition".
>>
>> Also, nobody should seriously propose that First Language Acquisition is
>> not a form of learning.
>
> Native-language acquisition and foreign-language learning are qualitatively
> utterly different.

Yes, and nobody disputes that. But specialists in language acquisition,
to my knowledge, might well phrase that fact as "first language
acquisition and second language acquisition are qualitatively utterly
different".

"Learning" has a meaning in psychology that easily encompasses both of
those processes. You can't just redefine all of Piaget.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 17/03/22 01:04, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-03-16 06:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:

>>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly
>>> "First Nations language" among the cognoscenti.
>>
>> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used
>> elsewhere?
>
> I would be VERY surprised if the term is used anywhere but Canada.

I heard it in Australia not long ago. I would have been confused if I
hadn't known about the Canadian usage.

Here, though, the potential ambiguity is usually avoided in a different way.

Native = born in Australia (as I was).
indigenous = descended from the original inhabitants.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* Peter Moylan:

> On 17/03/22 01:04, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-03-16 06:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:
>
>>>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly
>>>> "First Nations language" among the cognoscenti.
>>>
>>> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used
>>> elsewhere?
>>
>> I would be VERY surprised if the term is used anywhere but Canada.
>
> I heard it in Australia not long ago. I would have been confused if I
> hadn't known about the Canadian usage.
>
> Here, though, the potential ambiguity is usually avoided in a different way.
>
> Native = born in Australia (as I was).
> indigenous = descended from the original inhabitants.

That seems to be a characteristic of countries founded on immigration.

Germany being founded on ethnic identity, the normal assumption is that
those two descriptions coincide, and anyone who looks non-indigenous is
often assumed to be from abroad, or at least still culturally somewhat
distinct.

"Original inhabitants" in this context refers to the last 1000-2000
years, not 50,000, because there have been many more population
replacements over that time span than in Australia.

--
Learning the rules that govern intelligible speech is an
inculcation into normalized language, where the price of not
conforming is the loss of intelligibility itself.
-- Judith Butler

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:55:11 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter Moylan:
> > On 17/03/22 01:04, lar3ryca wrote:
> >> On 2022-03-16 06:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:
> >
> >>>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly
> >>>> "First Nations language" among the cognoscenti.
> >>>
> >>> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used
> >>> elsewhere?
> >>
> >> I would be VERY surprised if the term is used anywhere but Canada.
> >
> > I heard it in Australia not long ago. I would have been confused if I
> > hadn't known about the Canadian usage.
> >
> > Here, though, the potential ambiguity is usually avoided in a different way.
> >
> > Native = born in Australia (as I was).
> > indigenous = descended from the original inhabitants.
> That seems to be a characteristic of countries founded on immigration.
>
> Germany being founded on ethnic identity,

I know of no country that fits such a claim.

> the normal assumption is that those two descriptions coincide, and anyone who looks
> non-indigenous is often assumed to be from abroad, or at least still culturally somewhat
> distinct.
>
> "Original inhabitants" in this context refers to the last 1000-2000
> years, not 50,000, because there have been many more population
> replacements over that time span than in Australia.

All societies have had similar such populational upheaval,

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 10:17:04 AM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:55:11 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Peter Moylan:
> > > On 17/03/22 01:04, lar3ryca wrote:
> > >> On 2022-03-16 06:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > >>> On 2022-03-16 12:16:19 +0000, CDB said:
> > >
> > >>>> Anyway, I think we're falling behind. Nowadays it's undoubtedly
> > >>>> "First Nations language" among the cognoscenti.
> > >>>
> > >>> Undoubtedly in Canada, perhaps, but how widely is this term used
> > >>> elsewhere?
> > >>
> > >> I would be VERY surprised if the term is used anywhere but Canada.
> > >
> > > I heard it in Australia not long ago. I would have been confused if I
> > > hadn't known about the Canadian usage.
> > >
> > > Here, though, the potential ambiguity is usually avoided in a different way.
> > >
> > > Native = born in Australia (as I was).
> > > indigenous = descended from the original inhabitants.
> > That seems to be a characteristic of countries founded on immigration.
> >
> > Germany being founded on ethnic identity,
> I know of no country that fits such a claim.

I read that "nation" was first defined at the U of Paris many centuries back on the basis
of language; German would have been a nationality by that definition without there
being a country of Germany at the time. More currently, Germany seems to make the
claim that Gernan is an ethnicity; they have a term Volksdeutsche that tends to be
translated as "people of German ethnicity." They have maintained a policy of identifyin
some East Europeans as such for the purpose of admitting them into Germany as resettlers.
"Resettlers" implies that they are viewed as original inhabitants or orignal members of the
German nation.
https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/community-and-integration/ethnic-german-resettlers/ethnic-german-resettlers-node.html

> > the normal assumption is that those two descriptions coincide, and anyone who looks
> > non-indigenous is often assumed to be from abroad, or at least still culturally somewhat
> > distinct.
> >
> > "Original inhabitants" in this context refers to the last 1000-2000
> > years, not 50,000, because there have been many more population
> > replacements over that time span than in Australia.
> All societies have had similar such populational upheaval,