"BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.

Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
....
U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
>
> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
>
> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
>
> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> ...
> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html

US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:52:06 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
> >
> > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> >
> > Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> >
> > Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> > ...
> > U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> >
> > https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.

NATO, at this juncture, is 貌合神离.

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:40:24 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
>
> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
>
> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
>
> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> ...
> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html

Why German only allows German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine if the United States agrees to send its own tank?
My take, battle tanks are powerful weapons which could be used offensively. Germany by itself cannot restrict Ukraine
from using its tanks to escalate the conflict. And Germany could suddenly become target of Russian attack. After all,
German tanks firing German shells are readily identifiable.

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:40:24 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
>> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent
>> to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States
>> agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told
>> Reuters.
>>
>> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
>>
>> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
>>
>> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power
>> over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied
>> armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for
>> Ukraine.
>> ...
>> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said
>> President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve
>> Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its
>> own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
>>
>> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
>
> Why German only allows German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine if the
> United States agrees to send its own tank? My take, battle tanks are
> powerful weapons which could be used offensively. Germany by itself
> cannot restrict Ukraine from using its tanks to escalate the
> conflict. And Germany could suddenly become target of Russian
> attack. After all, German tanks firing German shells are readily
> identifiable.

Do you expect DE or US to send enough+ tanks to be used *really*
offensively *against Russia*? [really offensively => (deep) incursions
into *internationally* recognized territory of Russian Federation]
Making "panzer army" ready for blitzkrieg takes some (training) time
anyway. War is not a (fully) safe game to play even for Putin.
Only using nukes against Ukrainian forces in case of "deep shit"
(very black scenario of non cosmetic incursions into internationally
recognized territory of Russia) makes it still somehow reasonable risk
for Putin IMHO.

Germany seems to prefer to be second wise instead the first stupid.
They prefer to prevent Yankees playing "those stupid Germans"
Cover Your Ass games. I do not blame them (very) much.
Anyway: From PRC perspective it can be used to learn how to lead other
countries (subtly).

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| I use not only all the brains I have, but all those I can borrow as
| well. (Woodrow Wilson)

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:29:49 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 > wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:40:24 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent
> >> to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States
> >> agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told
> >> Reuters.
> >>
> >> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> >>
> >> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> >>
> >> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power
> >> over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied
> >> armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for
> >> Ukraine.
> >> ...
> >> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said
> >> President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve
> >> Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its
> >> own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> >>
> >> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> >
> > Why German only allows German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine if the
> > United States agrees to send its own tank? My take, battle tanks are
> > powerful weapons which could be used offensively. Germany by itself
> > cannot restrict Ukraine from using its tanks to escalate the
> > conflict. And Germany could suddenly become target of Russian
> > attack. After all, German tanks firing German shells are readily
> > identifiable.
> Do you expect DE or US to send enough+ tanks to be used *really*
> offensively *against Russia*? [really offensively => (deep) incursions
> into *internationally* recognized territory of Russian Federation]

Good questions.
Can you not answer your own questions of when is *really* offensive
*really* offensive , and *against Russia* *against Russia*?

> Making "panzer army" ready for blitzkrieg takes some (training) time
> anyway. War is not a (fully) safe game to play even for Putin.
> Only using nukes against Ukrainian forces in case of "deep shit"
> (very black scenario of non cosmetic incursions into internationally
> recognized territory of Russia) makes it still somehow reasonable risk
> for Putin IMHO.
>
> Germany seems to prefer to be second wise instead the first stupid.
> They prefer to prevent Yankees playing "those stupid Germans"
> Cover Your Ass games. I do not blame them (very) much.
Are you saying Germany sees the save Ukrianian Democracy/fight Russia
autocracy a lost game from the beginning? Otherwise, Germany is already
second wise far behind the US in dollars used in Ukraine.

> Anyway: From PRC perspective it can be used to learn how to lead other
> countries (subtly).
>

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:29:49 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
>> ltlee1 > wrote:
>> > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:40:24 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
>> >> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent
>> >> to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States
>> >> agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told
>> >> Reuters.
>> >>
>> >> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation
>> >> several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person
>> >> said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
>> >>
>> >> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
>> >>
>> >> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power
>> >> over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied
>> >> armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for
>> >> Ukraine.
>> >> ...
>> >> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said
>> >> President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve
>> >> Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its
>> >> own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
>> >>
>> >> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
>> >
>> > Why German only allows German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine if the
>> > United States agrees to send its own tank? My take, battle tanks are
>> > powerful weapons which could be used offensively. Germany by itself
>> > cannot restrict Ukraine from using its tanks to escalate the
>> > conflict. And Germany could suddenly become target of Russian
>> > attack. After all, German tanks firing German shells are readily
>> > identifiable.
>> Do you expect DE or US to send enough+ tanks to be used *really*
>> offensively *against Russia*? [really offensively => (deep) incursions
>> into *internationally* recognized territory of Russian Federation]
>
> Good questions.
> Can you not answer your own questions of when is *really* offensive
> *really* offensive , and *against Russia* *against Russia*?

It is unlikely to create real offensive force in this particular case
*anytime soon* - Russia will most likely have a lot of time for
"countermeasures". "Lucky shots" happen rarely. It is one (full) year
war already, it is time to consider "long war" scenarios too,
IMHO "Peace named ceasefire" is not too likely anytime soon.
Russia declared incorporation of part of Ukraine. Ukraine paid too high
war costs to be eager to quit (now). It would make the current
government "look stupid" [High pain without gain].

>> Making "panzer army" ready for blitzkrieg takes some (training) time
>> anyway. War is not a (fully) safe game to play even for Putin.
>> Only using nukes against Ukrainian forces in case of "deep shit"
>> (very black scenario of non cosmetic incursions into internationally
>> recognized territory of Russia) makes it still somehow reasonable risk
>> for Putin IMHO.
>>
>> Germany seems to prefer to be second wise instead the first stupid.
>> They prefer to prevent Yankees playing "those stupid Germans"
>> Cover Your Ass games. I do not blame them (very) much.
> Are you saying Germany sees the save Ukrianian Democracy/fight Russia
> autocracy a lost game from the beginning? Otherwise, Germany is already
> second wise far behind the US in dollars used in Ukraine.
>> Anyway: From PRC perspective it can be used to learn how to lead other
>> countries (subtly).

Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC.
West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| Ben, why didn't you tell me? (Luke Skywalker)

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:03:39 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:29:49 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> >> ltlee1 > wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:40:24 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> >> "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent
> >> >> to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States
> >> >> agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told
> >> >> Reuters.
> >> >>
> >> >> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation
> >> >> several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person
> >> >> said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> >> >>
> >> >> Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> >> >>
> >> >> Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power
> >> >> over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied
> >> >> armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for
> >> >> Ukraine.
> >> >> ...
> >> >> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said
> >> >> President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve
> >> >> Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its
> >> >> own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> >> >
> >> > Why German only allows German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine if the
> >> > United States agrees to send its own tank? My take, battle tanks are
> >> > powerful weapons which could be used offensively. Germany by itself
> >> > cannot restrict Ukraine from using its tanks to escalate the
> >> > conflict. And Germany could suddenly become target of Russian
> >> > attack. After all, German tanks firing German shells are readily
> >> > identifiable.
> >> Do you expect DE or US to send enough+ tanks to be used *really*
> >> offensively *against Russia*? [really offensively => (deep) incursions
> >> into *internationally* recognized territory of Russian Federation]
> >
> > Good questions.
> > Can you not answer your own questions of when is *really* offensive
> > *really* offensive , and *against Russia* *against Russia*?

> It is unlikely to create real offensive force in this particular case
> *anytime soon* - Russia will most likely have a lot of time for
> "countermeasures". "Lucky shots" happen rarely. It is one (full) year
> war already, it is time to consider "long war" scenarios too,
> IMHO "Peace named ceasefire" is not too likely anytime soon.
> Russia declared incorporation of part of Ukraine. Ukraine paid too high
> war costs to be eager to quit (now). It would make the current
> government "look stupid" [High pain without gain].

Agree that Ukraine had paid a stiff price. And it is not eager to quit now.
But this means dangerous time ahead.
No one had expected Gavrilo Princip's lucky shot at Sarajevo would lead
to WWI. Who knows what would constitute the lucky shot/shell this time
around?
> >> Making "panzer army" ready for blitzkrieg takes some (training) time
> >> anyway. War is not a (fully) safe game to play even for Putin.
> >> Only using nukes against Ukrainian forces in case of "deep shit"
> >> (very black scenario of non cosmetic incursions into internationally
> >> recognized territory of Russia) makes it still somehow reasonable risk
> >> for Putin IMHO.
> >>
> >> Germany seems to prefer to be second wise instead the first stupid.
> >> They prefer to prevent Yankees playing "those stupid Germans"
> >> Cover Your Ass games. I do not blame them (very) much.
> > Are you saying Germany sees the save Ukrianian Democracy/fight Russia
> > autocracy a lost game from the beginning? Otherwise, Germany is already
> > second wise far behind the US in dollars used in Ukraine.
> >> Anyway: From PRC perspective it can be used to learn how to lead other
> >> countries (subtly).
> Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC.
> West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.

West collectively, Yes.
But harder to say concerning military unit or units going rogue. Just consider
headline like this "Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National
Holiday and Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader."

Ukrainians, at least their political and military leadership, are turning extremists.

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:03:39 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
[…]
>> Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC.
>> West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.
>
> West collectively, Yes.
> But harder to say concerning military unit or units going rogue. Just consider
> headline like this "Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National
> Holiday and Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader."
>
> Ukrainians, at least their political and military leadership, are
> turning extremists.

Give the names or get lost. "The Details" DO make difference.
Do you enjoy foreigners giving (strong) opinions about Chiba with little
knowledge about "(important) details"?

I am very far away from naming Stepan Bandera "a good guy" (the most
likely candidate [A]). Taking about him without a few "details" would make
him hero *for far too many Ukrainians* - I prefer to avoid such scenario
[ "I will frostbite my ears to spite my grandmother" ]
The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].

[A] https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911
> Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
> Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
> ; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
> […] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
> Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. […]
> Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
> Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
> Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
> nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
> in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
> Jew in Paris in 1929.[…]

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
> […] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
> had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
> stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
> Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
> an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
> liquidated".[66]
> In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
> concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
> high-profile political prisoners […]

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| Men use thought only to justify their wrong doings, and speech only
| to conceal their thoughts. (Voltaire)

A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>
> ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
> being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].
>
> [A]
> https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911
>> Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
>> Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
>> ; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
>> [.] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
>> Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. [.]
>> Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
>> Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
>> Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
>> nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
>> in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
>> Jew in Paris in 1929.[.]
>
> [B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
>> [.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
>> had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
>> stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
>> Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
>> an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
>> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
>> liquidated".[66]
>> In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
>> concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
>> high-profile political prisoners [.]

Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric
extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward
each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one
needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis
sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to
mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different
end goals)) should be taken so.

And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements
can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually
are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right-
wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).

Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can
form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians
understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds
contradict their rhetorical narratives.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:04:35 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:03:39 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> […]
> >> Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC.
> >> West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.
> >
> > West collectively, Yes.
> > But harder to say concerning military unit or units going rogue. Just consider
> > headline like this "Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National
> > Holiday and Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader."
> >
> > Ukrainians, at least their political and military leadership, are
> > turning extremists.
> Give the names or get lost. "The Details" DO make difference.
> Do you enjoy foreigners giving (strong) opinions about Chiba with little
> knowledge about "(important) details"?
>
> I am very far away from naming Stepan Bandera "a good guy" (the most
> likely candidate [A]). Taking about him without a few "details" would make
> him hero *for far too many Ukrainians* - I prefer to avoid such scenario
> [ "I will frostbite my ears to spite my grandmother" ]
> The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
> being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].
>
> [A] https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911
> > Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
> > Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
> > ; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
> > […] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
> > Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. […]
> > Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
> > Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
> > Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
> > nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
> > in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
> > Jew in Paris in 1929.[…]
>
> [B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
> > […] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
> > had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
> > stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
> > Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
> > an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
> > be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
> > liquidated".[66]
> > In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
> > concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
> > high-profile political prisoners […]
> --

If you don't like "extremists", try Bandera cult followers.

"Stepan Bandera: Hero or Nazi collaborator?"
https://www.dw.com/en/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-hero-or-nazi-collaborator/a-61842720

"Ukraine that Bandera wanted

The Bandera cult is an "expression of selective memory and politics of history," said Andreas
Umland, an expert at the Stockholm Center for Eastern European Studies. It is about remembering
that Bandera was a radical fighter for independence who served time in a Polish prison and a
German concentration camp and was murdered by the KGB, he told DW.

"What people do not remember is that both at the beginning and at the end of World War II, the
movement that Bandera led, the OUN, cooperated with the Third Reich for various reasons," Umland
said.

Experts have two explanations, said Umland. One group believes the cooperation was forced,
while others argue there was an ideological closeness. Both are true, said Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe,
a Bandera biographer and historian at the Free University of Berlin.

"Of course Bandera wanted a Ukrainian state, but he wanted a fascist state, an authoritarian state,
one where he would have been the leader," said Rossolinski-Liebe.

Both Umland and Rossolinski-Liebe point out another dark side in the history of the Bandera movement,
the involvement of OUN fighters in the murders of civilians, Jews and Poles, in the regions of Galicia and
Volhynia. However, they said Bandera personally had no part in the murders.

"The OUN joined the Ukrainian police, in 1941, and helped the Germans murder Jews in western Ukraine,"
said Rossolinski-Liebe, adding he had found no evidence that Bandera supported or condemned "ethnic
cleansing" or killing Jews and other minorities. It was, however, important that people from OUN and UPA
"identified with him," he said.

Hugely popular, despite controversial image

Bandera was not a "Nazi," but a "Ukrainian ultranationalist," Umland argued, saying Ukrainian nationalism
at the time was "not a copy of Nazism." Rossolinski-Liebe takes a different view, saying Bandera can be
called "a radical nationalist, a fascist."

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:49:26 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:52:06 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
> > >
> > > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> > >
> > > Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> > >
> > > Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> > > ...
> > > U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> > >
> > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> > US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.
> NATO, at this juncture, is 貌合神离.

NATO looks like God?.

Oleg Smirnov, <news:tqf759$293ju$2@os.motzarella.org>
> A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>

>> [B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
>>> [.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
>>> had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
>>> stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
>>> Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
>>> an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
>>> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
>>> liquidated".[66]
>>> In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
>>> concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
>>> high-profile political prisoners [.]
>
> Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric
> extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward
> each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one
> needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis
> sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to
> mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different
> end goals)) should be taken so.
>
> And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements
> can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
> their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually
> are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right-
> wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).
>
> Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can
> form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians
> understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
> thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds
> contradict their rhetorical narratives.

By the way, the China's government presently also seeks to present its own
universalist offer - with Chinese characteristics - in the form of Community
of Common Destiny <https://clck.ru/33KhXw>. The conception is not very
specific, but this fact may be more good than bad. Once the USSR sought to
offer a well-specific model, and it turned non-viable.

"Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:
> A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>
>> ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
>> being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].
>>
>> [A]
>> https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911
>>> Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
>>> Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
>>> ; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
>>> [.] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
>>> Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. [.]
>>> Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
>>> Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
>>> Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
>>> nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
>>> in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
>>> Jew in Paris in 1929.[.]
>>
>> [B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
>>> [.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
>>> had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
>>> stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
>>> Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
>>> an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
>>> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
>>> liquidated".[66]
>>> In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
>>> concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
>>> high-profile political prisoners [.]
>
> Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric
> extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward
> each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one
> needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis
> sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to
> mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different
> end goals)) should be taken so.
>
> And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements
> can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
> their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually
> are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right-
> wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).
>
> Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can
> form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians
> understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
> thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds
> contradict their rhetorical narratives.

Ukraine needs heroes. *Sadly* Bandera seems to be the best (fresh) fit
even if controversial+. Putin has turned the need to urgent+.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
From Russia perspective the trick (for western consumption) is to make
Bandera look bad without giving impression of being blinded by own
propaganda. It should not be (very) challenging.

I can assure you that Putin *will be* called ultra nationalist at
very least by some. So do not be careless with your "simplifications".

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| "You, sir, are nothing but a pathetically lame salesdroid! I fart
| in your general direction!" (Randseed on #Linux)

A. Filip, <news:anfi+b2ehuh23pf-n1l6@wp.eu>
> "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:

>>> [B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
>>>> [.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
>>>> had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
>>>> stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
>>>> Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
>>>> an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
>>>> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
>>>> liquidated".[66]
>>>> In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
>>>> concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
>>>> high-profile political prisoners [.]
>>
>> Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric
>> extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward
>> each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one
>> needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis
>> sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to
>> mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different
>> end goals)) should be taken so.
>>
>> And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements
>> can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
>> their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually
>> are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the
>> right- wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point
>> here)).
>>
>> Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can
>> form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians
>> understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
>> thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds
>> contradict their rhetorical narratives.
>
> Ukraine needs heroes.

Speak for yourself.

And 'Ukraine' is not a single individual.

> *Sadly* Bandera seems to be the best (fresh) fit
> even if controversial+. Putin has turned the need to urgent+.
> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> From Russia perspective the trick (for western consumption) is to make
> Bandera look bad

It's not a *trick* and it doesn't *look* bad, - it's simply bad,
and those citizens of the post-Soviet Ukraine who couldn't accept
the Banderist cultism didn't care about "western consumption".

> without giving impression of being blinded by own propaganda.

Filip seeks to retell the Atlanticist propaganda narratives that
are intended to bring to the simple idea that everything must be
acceptable simply because we dislike 'Putin' so much.

> It should not be (very) challenging.
>
> I can assure you that Putin *will be* called ultra nationalist at
> very least by some. So do not be careless with your "simplifications".

For the Poland's Poles it may be natural to think in the terms of
tricks intended for one's "consumption", but this style of thinking
is alien to Russians, so your petty wisdoms are not welcome.

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 6:36:16 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:49:26 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:52:06 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
> > > >
> > > > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> > > >
> > > > Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> > > >
> > > > Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> > > > ...
> > > > U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> > > >
> > > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> > > US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.
> > NATO, at this juncture, is 貌合神离.
> NATO looks like God?.

United in appearance, separated in spirit.

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 10:13:49 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 6:36:16 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:49:26 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:52:06 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
> > > > >
> > > > > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> > > > US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.
> > > NATO, at this juncture, is 貌合神离.
> > NATO looks like God?.
> United in appearance, separated in spirit.

Every member in NATO worried the trap of engagement schemed by UK and US. They want members to go in first and die for them first. If members win they will go in to claim credits. If members lose the war, they will depart and say good night to them.

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 10:13:49 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 6:36:16 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:49:26 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:52:06 AM UTC, stoney wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > "BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will allow German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia if the United States agrees to send its own tanks, a German government source told Reuters.
> > > > >
> > > > > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has stressed the stipulation several times in recent days behind closed doors, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Western allies will meet at a U.S. air base in Germany on Friday to offer more weapons for Ukraine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Attention is focused in particular on Germany, which has veto power over any decision to send its Leopard tanks, fielded by NATO-allied armies across Europe and widely seen as the most suitable for Ukraine.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said President Joe Biden's administration is next expected to approve Stryker armored vehicles for Ukraine but is not poised to send its own tanks, including the M1 Abrams."
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-allow-exports-german-tanks-212939871.html
> > > > US is advancing their proxy war in Ukraine on Russia by advancing more advanced weapons to destroy Russia. US mercenaries are hired to drive and handle them. No wonder, Putin said NATO must go.
> > > NATO, at this juncture, is 貌合神离.
> > NATO looks like God?.
> United in appearance, separated in spirit.

Brazil refused to send tank shells to Germany over fears that Berlin will transfer them to Ukraine. Brazil justified his rejection by arguing that one "should not provoke the Russians".

Brazil is worried of being economically entrapped by wicked NATO schemers UK, US and Germany, too. Brazil thinks, long term-wise, their friendship will Russia is far more important than them. In matter of time, NATO will beak up and send to the dustbin.