There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
misinformation on the platform.

BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>

The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.

The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
are used in the same sentence:

The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
disinformation and misinformation worldwide".

On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:

> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
> online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
> YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
> spread of misinformation on the platform.
>
> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>
> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>
> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
> terms are used in the same sentence:
>
> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".

My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
of the utterer.

Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
producing it are aware that it's false.

A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
distinction.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Le 13/01/2022 à 09:22, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:
>
>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
>> online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
>> YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
>> spread of misinformation on the platform.
>>
>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>
>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>
>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
>> terms are used in the same sentence:
>>
>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>
> My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
> great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
> of the utterer.
>
> Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
> producing it are aware that it's false.
>
> A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
> distinction.

Yes.

On 13/01/2022 10:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:
>
>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
>> online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
>> YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
>> spread of misinformation on the platform.
>>
>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>
>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>
>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
>> terms are used in the same sentence:
>>
>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>
> My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
> great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
> of the utterer.
>
> Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
> producing it are aware that it's false.
>
> A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
> distinction.
>

People, perhaps yes. Dictionaries on the other hand are not so clear-cut
about the 'intent' of misinformation. Disinformation (a later word?)
seems to enforce this view.

From Merriam Webster:

First Known Use of misinformation, 1605

First Known Use of disinformation, 1939

Le 13/01/2022 à 10:02, occam a écrit :
> On 13/01/2022 10:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:
>>
>>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
>>> online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
>>> YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
>>> spread of misinformation on the platform.
>>>
>>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>>
>>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>>
>>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
>>> terms are used in the same sentence:
>>>
>>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>>
>> My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
>> great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
>> of the utterer.
>>
>> Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
>> producing it are aware that it's false.
>>
>> A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
>> distinction.
>
> People, perhaps yes. Dictionaries on the other hand are not so clear-cut
> about the 'intent' of misinformation. Disinformation (a later word?)
> seems to enforce this view.
>
> From Merriam Webster:
>
> First Known Use of misinformation, 1605
>
> First Known Use of disinformation, 1939

The OED is perfectly clear:

Misinformation: "The action of misinforming someone;
the condition of being misinformed." To misinform:
"To give wrong or misleading information...."

Disinformation: "The dissemination of deliberately
false information...."

By and large, dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. In
principle, they should give the same answer as 'people'.

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 5:02:35 AM UTC-5, occam wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 10:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:

> >> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
> >> online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
> >> YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
> >> spread of misinformation on the platform.
> >> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
> >> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> >> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
> >> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
> >> terms are used in the same sentence:
> >> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> >> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
> > My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
> > great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
> > of the utterer.
> > Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
> > producing it are aware that it's false.
> > A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
> > distinction.
>
> People, perhaps yes. Dictionaries on the other hand are not so clear-cut
> about the 'intent' of misinformation. Disinformation (a later word?)
> seems to enforce this view.
>
> From Merriam Webster:
>
> First Known Use of misinformation, 1605
>
> First Known Use of disinformation, 1939

Dictionaries take time to produce, and require adequate evidence.
"Disinformation" has had a recent, and highly justified, surge, and
the lexicographers are collecting their data. Soon you'll find one
of those little paragraphs about synonyms in the entry, but meanwhile
that's not where to look for current information.

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 2:22:27 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/01/22 07:43 PM, occam wrote:
>
> > There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of
> > online disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to
> > YouTube CEO saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the
> > spread of misinformation on the platform.
> >
> > BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
> >
> > The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> > 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
> >
> > The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both
> > terms are used in the same sentence:
> >
> > The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> > disinformation and misinformation worldwide".

> My take on it: misinformation is any kind of incorrect information. A
> great deal of it, especially on the web, is due to ignorance on the part
> of the utterer.
>
> Disinformation is misinformation being deliberately spread, where those
> producing it are aware that it's false.
>
> A quick look at the web suggests that other people make the same
> distinction.

I would agree.

On etymology, the OED says,

"perhaps < Russian dezinformacija (1949, in S. I. Ožegov /Slovar′ russkogo jazyka/,
allegedly < French, although French /désinformation/ is not recorded until 1954
(Quemada, /Matériaux/ (1971) II. 53)"

Most of the citations are from the Cold War, and most of them refer to the USSR.
My recollection from the '70s or so is that it initially meant false information made
public by a government that thought the benefit of deceiving the adversary
outweighed the cost of deceiving their own citizens.

--
Jerry Friedman

Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
> misinformation on the platform.
>
> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>
> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>
> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
> are used in the same sentence:
>
> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".

Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the English-speaking
world), the term of "re-information" is also used to refer to the attempt by
alternative media to counter alleged disinformation and misinformation by
mainstream ones.

In article <3a88f1c4-9069-4d4d-96dc-b228fe9b5fe3n@googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On etymology, the OED says,
>
>"perhaps < Russian dezinformacija (1949, in S. I. Ožegov /Slovar′
>russkogo jazyka/,
>allegedly < French, although French /désinformation/ is not recorded until 1954
>(Quemada, /Matériaux/ (1971) II. 53)"
>
>Most of the citations are from the Cold War, and most of them refer to the USSR.
>My recollection from the '70s or so is that it initially meant false
>information made
>public by a government that thought the benefit of deceiving the adversary
>outweighed the cost of deceiving their own citizens.

The Soviet Union was famous for its preeminent role in the development
of "active measures", which included "information operations", going
back even to before WW2.

(I have a history monograph called _Active Measures_ by German
political scientist Thomas Rid in my to-read pile; it was published a
couple of years ago.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

* Bebercito:

> Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
>> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
>> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
>> misinformation on the platform.
>>
>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>
>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>
>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
>> are used in the same sentence:
>>
>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>
> Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
> either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
> otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
> about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the English-speaking
> world), the term of "re-information" is also used to refer to the attempt by
> alternative media to counter alleged disinformation and misinformation by
> mainstream ones.

Is that an allusion to re-education?

--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 03:49:06 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
> * Bebercito:
> > Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> >> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
> >> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
> >> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
> >> misinformation on the platform.
> >>
> >> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
> >>
> >> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> >> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
> >>
> >> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
> >> are used in the same sentence:
> >>
> >> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> >> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
> >
> > Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
> > either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
> > otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
> > about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the English-speaking
> > world), the term of "re-information" is also used to refer to the attempt by
> > alternative media to counter alleged disinformation and misinformation by
> > mainstream ones.
> Is that an allusion to re-education?

There is indeed some similarity, but the concept seems to have emerged
precisely as a response to disinformation, as shown by this example
definition:

---
« dynamique de lutte contre la désinformation idéologique volontaire
attribuée aux médias dominants »

http://publictionnaire.huma-num.fr/notice/reinformation/
---

(Incidentally, I'm surprised that the term hasn't caught on in
English.)

>
> --
> The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
> important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
> -- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

On 14/01/2022 06:00, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 03:49:06 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
>> * Bebercito:
>>> Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
>>>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
>>>> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
>>>> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
>>>> misinformation on the platform.
>>>>
>>>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>>>
>>>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>>>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>>>
>>>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
>>>> are used in the same sentence:
>>>>
>>>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>>>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>>>
>>> Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
>>> either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
>>> otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
>>> about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the English-speaking
>>> world), the term of "re-information" is also used to refer to the attempt by
>>> alternative media to counter alleged disinformation and misinformation by
>>> mainstream ones.
>> Is that an allusion to re-education?
>
> There is indeed some similarity, but the concept seems to have emerged
> precisely as a response to disinformation, as shown by this example
> definition:
>
> ---
> « dynamique de lutte contre la désinformation idéologique volontaire
> attribuée aux médias dominants »
>
> http://publictionnaire.huma-num.fr/notice/reinformation/
> ---
>
> (Incidentally, I'm surprised that the term hasn't caught on in
> English.)
>

'Réinformation' sounds a bit scary (echoes of George Orwell's 1984),
coming at it does from the far-right media, if I understand the
introduction to that article correctly.

Bebercito <bebercito@aol.com> wrote:

> Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 03:49:06 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
> > * Bebercito:
> > > Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> > >> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
> > >> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
> > >> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
> > >> misinformation on the platform.
> > >>
> > >> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
> > >>
> > >> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> > >> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
> > >>
> > >> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
> > >> are used in the same sentence:
> > >>
> > >> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> > >> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
> > >
> > > Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
> > > either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
> > > otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
> > > about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the
> > > English-speaking world), the term of "re-information" is also used to
> > > refer to the attempt by alternative media to counter alleged
> > > disinformation and misinformation by mainstream ones.
> > Is that an allusion to re-education?
>
> There is indeed some similarity, but the concept seems to have emerged
> precisely as a response to disinformation, as shown by this example
> definition:
>
> ---
> « dynamique de lutte contre la désinformation idéologique volontaire
> attribuée aux médias dominants »
>
> http://publictionnaire.huma-num.fr/notice/reinformation/
> ---
>
> (Incidentally, I'm surprised that the term hasn't caught on in
> English.)

But it has.
The Chinese had re-education camps, from Mao onwards,
both for petty thieves and political prisoners.
(and perhaps still have)
It must have given the term a bad name,

Jan

On 14/01/2022 10:57, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Bebercito <bebercito@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 03:49:06 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
>>> * Bebercito:
>>>> Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
>>>>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
>>>>> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
>>>>> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
>>>>> misinformation on the platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
>>>>>
>>>>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
>>>>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
>>>>>
>>>>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
>>>>> are used in the same sentence:
>>>>>
>>>>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
>>>>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
>>>>
>>>> Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
>>>> either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
>>>> otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
>>>> about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the
>>>> English-speaking world), the term of "re-information" is also used to
>>>> refer to the attempt by alternative media to counter alleged
>>>> disinformation and misinformation by mainstream ones.
>>> Is that an allusion to re-education?
>>
>> There is indeed some similarity, but the concept seems to have emerged
>> precisely as a response to disinformation, as shown by this example
>> definition:
>>
>> ---
>> « dynamique de lutte contre la désinformation idéologique volontaire
>> attribuée aux médias dominants »
>>
>> http://publictionnaire.huma-num.fr/notice/reinformation/
>> ---
>>
>> (Incidentally, I'm surprised that the term hasn't caught on in
>> English.)
>
> But it has.
> The Chinese had re-education camps, from Mao onwards,
> both for petty thieves and political prisoners.
> (and perhaps still have)
> It must have given the term a bad name,
>

're-education', yes. 'Re-information', not. 'réinformation' has a
distinctly French ring to it.

Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 08:34:07 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> On 14/01/2022 06:00, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 03:49:06 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
> >> * Bebercito:
> >>> Le jeudi 13 janvier 2022 à 09:43:40 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> >>>> There is a kerfuffle going on with YouTube as a 'major conduit of online
> >>>> disinformation'. Some 80 companies have signed a letter to YouTube CEO
> >>>> saying that YouTube is not doing enough to prevent the spread of
> >>>> misinformation on the platform.
> >>>>
> >>>> BBC article: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59967190>
> >>>>
> >>>> The question: What is the difference (real or imagined) between
> >>>> 'disinformation' and 'misinformation'.
> >>>>
> >>>> The authors of the letter clearly think there is, given that both terms
> >>>> are used in the same sentence:
> >>>>
> >>>> The letter says it is "one of the major conduits of online
> >>>> disinformation and misinformation worldwide".
> >>>
> >>> Etymologically, it could be that the same wrong information is
> >>> either "disinformation" to an audience who was previously informed
> >>> otherwise or "misinformation" to an audience who was not informed
> >>> about a given issue. In France (but apparently not in the English-speaking
> >>> world), the term of "re-information" is also used to refer to the attempt by
> >>> alternative media to counter alleged disinformation and misinformation by
> >>> mainstream ones.
> >> Is that an allusion to re-education?
> >
> > There is indeed some similarity, but the concept seems to have emerged
> > precisely as a response to disinformation, as shown by this example
> > definition:
> >
> > ---
> > « dynamique de lutte contre la désinformation idéologique volontaire
> > attribuée aux médias dominants »
> >
> > http://publictionnaire.huma-num.fr/notice/reinformation/
> > ---
> >
> > (Incidentally, I'm surprised that the term hasn't caught on in
> > English.)
> >
> 'Réinformation' sounds a bit scary (echoes of George Orwell's 1984),
> coming at it does from the far-right media, if I understand the
> introduction to that article correctly.

Indeed, but "far-right" is an anathema that's easily pronounced
on those who think differently on some "hot issues" in France
(immigration, etc.), in order to debunk them and evade actual
debate with them - so that it's come to lose its real political
meaning.

* Bebercito:

> Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 08:34:07 UTC+1, occam a écrit :

>> 'Réinformation' sounds a bit scary (echoes of George Orwell's 1984),
>> coming at it does from the far-right media, if I understand the
>> introduction to that article correctly.
>
> Indeed, but "far-right" is an anathema that's easily pronounced
> on those who think differently on some "hot issues" in France
> (immigration, etc.), in order to debunk them and evade actual
> debate with them - so that it's come to lose its real political
> meaning.

Not only in France. Although IME, it's never real leftist ideas (like
"defund the police") that are labeled as "far-right". So unfortunately,
the result is that when actual far-right ideas are called far-right,
that is now routinely rejected as just a disparagement, even though in
most cases, the label was correct.

--
Certain writers assert very decidedly that no pronouns are
needed beyond those we already possess, but this is simply a
dogmatic opinion, unsupported by the facts.
-- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)

Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 19:26:37 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
> * Bebercito:
> > Le vendredi 14 janvier 2022 à 08:34:07 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
>
> >> 'Réinformation' sounds a bit scary (echoes of George Orwell's 1984),
> >> coming at it does from the far-right media, if I understand the
> >> introduction to that article correctly.
> >
> > Indeed, but "far-right" is an anathema that's easily pronounced
> > on those who think differently on some "hot issues" in France
> > (immigration, etc.), in order to debunk them and evade actual
> > debate with them - so that it's come to lose its real political
> > meaning.
> Not only in France. Although IME, it's never real leftist ideas (like
> "defund the police") that are labeled as "far-right". So unfortunately,
> the result is that when actual far-right ideas are called far-right,
> that is now routinely rejected as just a disparagement, even though in
> most cases, the label was correct.

Yes, aka "cry wolf".

>
> --
> Certain writers assert very decidedly that no pronouns are
> needed beyond those we already possess, but this is simply a
> dogmatic opinion, unsupported by the facts.
> -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)