https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/29/war-military-quagmire-russia-ukraine/

"First, it is impossible to know in advance how fiercely an opponent will resist, and leaders contemplating an attack are likely to underestimate it. Failure to appreciate the power of nationalism is one reason for this tendency, and the related tendency to see one’s own nation as innately superior to all potential foes encourages aggressors to discount an opponent’s ability to resist. Nobody starts a war if they recognize their opponent is stronger, is more united, and cares more about the outcome; the remarkable part is how often a state starting a war gets this wrong.

Second, once a war is underway, the familiar problem of sunk costs invariably kicks in.
....
Third, wars continue because the act of fighting itself hardens each side’s image of the other. No matter how suspicious or hostile the warring parties were at the onset, those feelings of hatred and suspicion will only increase as each inflicts more death, destruction, and suffering on the other.
....
Fourth, as the image of the enemy hardens, the ability to negotiate declines. Diplomatic ties may be severed, making direct communication more difficult, and anyone who dares raise the possibility of compromise is likely to be denounced as a traitor (or worse). Even if negotiations do begin, neither side will trust the other enough to cut a deal.
....
Fifth, wars also have a powerful tendency to escalate and widen. If one side is losing, it may consider using more force, striking at new and more dangerous targets, or raising the stakes in other ways. The recent explosions in Crimea, the dangerous situation at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, and the car bombing in Moscow of a pro-Putin commentator show exactly how this process can work, no matter who is ultimately responsible for these actions.
....
A sixth problem that prolongs wars is the deteriorating quality of information. As the saying sometimes attributed to former U.S. Sen. Hiram Johnson goes, “The first casualty when war comes is truth.” Although countries at war should think and act as coolly and clearly as possible, wartime conditions make this harder to do.
....
There’s one final problem: The people who started a war have little incentive to end it before achieving something they can portray as a victory, because settling for less is an admission that they screwed up big time.. "

Of course, every war is different.
How to apply the above factors to the current conflict between Russia and Ukraine?

How would each NATO nations see the above?
For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO nations? German? France?

ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8-9ba2-d47c2592a713n@googlegroups.com>

> For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> nations? German? France?

In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.

Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
in the mainstream.

Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
toward each other".

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>
> > For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> > and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> > nations? German? France?
> In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
> aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
> Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
> Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
> ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
> media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
> the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
> unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
> say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
>
> Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
> promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
> they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
> coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
> in the mainstream.
>
> Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
> in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
> toward each other".

To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn the other cheek.
Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their hatred toward each
other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers (and female
equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the opposite side.
The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.

Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with appropriate post war
settlement.

ltlee1, <news:b3782543-2ddf-4874-9f37-0a7ed65d0c2fn@googlegroups.com>
> On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>

>>> For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if
>>> Ukrainians
>>> and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
>>> nations? German? France?
>>
>> In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
>> aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
>> Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
>> Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
>> ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
>> media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
>> the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
>> unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
>> say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
>>
>> Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
>> promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
>> they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
>> coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
>> in the mainstream.
>>
>> Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
>> in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
>> toward each other".
>
> To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn
> the other cheek.
> Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their
> hatred toward each
> other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and
> brothers (and female
> equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the
> opposite side.
> The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.
>
> Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with
> appropriate post war
> settlement.

If it was possible to turn the Kiev's hateful propaganda off,
then a settlement would be easy, but in this way the regime could
not be utilized by the Atlanticism as a tool against Russia.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:25:06 AM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>
> > > For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> > > and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> > > nations? German? France?
> > In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
> > aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
> > Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
> > Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
> > ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
> > media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
> > the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
> > unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
> > say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
> >
> > Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
> > promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
> > they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
> > coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
> > in the mainstream.
> >
> > Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
> > in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
> > toward each other".
> To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn the other cheek.
> Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their hatred toward each
> other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers (and female
> equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the opposite side.
> The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.
>
> Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with appropriate post war
> settlement.

It is unlikely the West will turn off their hateful propaganda because the West wants Zelensky to keep talking in return for weapons an d money for foods. At one point, Zelensky crony said Russia fired 50 missiles a day on Ukraine. Hence,
the West in fact uses Zelensky as their voice of US propaganda department on Russia and China and even those countries that supported sanctions on Russia. In short, each time Zelensky cooked up saying 50 missiles were fired on Ukraine, US will send 5 billion dollars per month worth of weapons and ammunitions, mercenaries, money, and foods to Ukraine to support their war on Russia.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 2:43:02 AM UTC-4, stoney wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:25:06 AM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > > ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> > > > and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> > > > nations? German? France?
> > > In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
> > > aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
> > > Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
> > > Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
> > > ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
> > > media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
> > > the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
> > > unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
> > > say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
> > >
> > > Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
> > > promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
> > > they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
> > > coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
> > > in the mainstream.
> > >
> > > Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
> > > in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
> > > toward each other".
> > To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn the other cheek.
> > Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their hatred toward each
> > other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers (and female
> > equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the opposite side.
> > The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.
> >
> > Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with appropriate post war
> > settlement.
> It is unlikely the West will turn off their hateful propaganda because the West wants Zelensky to keep talking in return for weapons an d money for foods. At one point, Zelensky crony said Russia fired 50 missiles a day on Ukraine. Hence,
> the West in fact uses Zelensky as their voice of US propaganda department on Russia and China and even those countries that supported sanctions on Russia. In short, each time Zelensky cooked up saying 50 missiles were fired on Ukraine, US will send 5 billion dollars per month worth of weapons and ammunitions, mercenaries, money, and foods to Ukraine to support their war on Russia.

Is the West monolithic over the conflict? To the degree that NATO has a say over a member
nation's policy and politics, member nations are by default divided nations.. The leaders
have to answer to its people and to fulfill NATO responsibility. The two goals could be in conflict.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/in-prague-it-begins/
" Tens of thousands of Czechs protested in Prague against the government to demand more
state help with rising energy bills, the largest manifestation of public discontent over the worst
cost-of-living crisis in three decades.

About 70,000 people filled Wenceslas Square in the center of the Czech capital on Saturday,
according to police estimates, with some carrying signs denouncing the country’s membership
of the European Union and the NATO military alliance.

Czech inflation, driven mainly by surging housing costs and spiking energy prices, is currently
the highest since 1993 and the central bank forecasts it to peak at around 20% in the coming months.

The Czech PM dismissed it all as a conclave of Russian sympathizers and dupes. Are the Russians
exploiting this? Of course they are! But the fact remains that life has become very hard economically
in Czechia.
....
Meanwhile, in the UK, 60 percent of British factories may fail, crushed by exorbitant energy prices. If
six in ten British factories fail, Britain is going to be crippled, and probably will have a depression.
....
UPDATE: Now, in Bucharest. Here's an article (in Romanian) sent to me by one of my friends in Romania.
He said that the author, former Prime Minister Victor Ponta, is not considered to be a credible character,
but the sentiment he expresses here is widely shared in that country. ...
An excerpt:
However, there are big differences between the European countries that are suffering -- some in the
West are so rich that they have the "audacity" to suffer for 10 years without really feeling it; others from
the East are making a big fuss, they find tricky but effective solutions to save their economy and population;
and others, like Romania, give everything, they don't ask for anything and they don't get anything in return
and they don't bother to explain to people what is happening to them, why and what future awaits them!"

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 9:25:21 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 2:43:02 AM UTC-4, stoney wrote:
> > On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:25:06 AM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > > > ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> > > > > and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> > > > > nations? German? France?
> > > > In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
> > > > aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
> > > > Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
> > > > Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
> > > > ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
> > > > media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
> > > > the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
> > > > unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
> > > > say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
> > > >
> > > > Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
> > > > promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
> > > > they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
> > > > coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
> > > > in the mainstream.
> > > >
> > > > Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
> > > > in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
> > > > toward each other".
> > > To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn the other cheek.
> > > Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their hatred toward each
> > > other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers (and female
> > > equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the opposite side.
> > > The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.
> > >
> > > Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with appropriate post war
> > > settlement.
> > It is unlikely the West will turn off their hateful propaganda because the West wants Zelensky to keep talking in return for weapons an d money for foods. At one point, Zelensky crony said Russia fired 50 missiles a day on Ukraine. Hence,
> > the West in fact uses Zelensky as their voice of US propaganda department on Russia and China and even those countries that supported sanctions on Russia. In short, each time Zelensky cooked up saying 50 missiles were fired on Ukraine, US will send 5 billion dollars per month worth of weapons and ammunitions, mercenaries, money, and foods to Ukraine to support their war on Russia.
> Is the West monolithic over the conflict? To the degree that NATO has a say over a member
> nation's policy and politics, member nations are by default divided nations. The leaders
> have to answer to its people and to fulfill NATO responsibility. The two goals could be in conflict.
>
> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/in-prague-it-begins/
> " Tens of thousands of Czechs protested in Prague against the government to demand more
> state help with rising energy bills, the largest manifestation of public discontent over the worst
> cost-of-living crisis in three decades.
>
> About 70,000 people filled Wenceslas Square in the center of the Czech capital on Saturday,
> according to police estimates, with some carrying signs denouncing the country’s membership
> of the European Union and the NATO military alliance.
>
> Czech inflation, driven mainly by surging housing costs and spiking energy prices, is currently
> the highest since 1993 and the central bank forecasts it to peak at around 20% in the coming months.
>
> The Czech PM dismissed it all as a conclave of Russian sympathizers and dupes. Are the Russians
> exploiting this? Of course they are! But the fact remains that life has become very hard economically
> in Czechia.
> ...
> Meanwhile, in the UK, 60 percent of British factories may fail, crushed by exorbitant energy prices. If
> six in ten British factories fail, Britain is going to be crippled, and probably will have a depression.
> ...
> UPDATE: Now, in Bucharest. Here's an article (in Romanian) sent to me by one of my friends in Romania.
> He said that the author, former Prime Minister Victor Ponta, is not considered to be a credible character,
> but the sentiment he expresses here is widely shared in that country. ...
> An excerpt:
> However, there are big differences between the European countries that are suffering -- some in the
> West are so rich that they have the "audacity" to suffer for 10 years without really feeling it; others from
> the East are making a big fuss, they find tricky but effective solutions to save their economy and population;
> and others, like Romania, give everything, they don't ask for anything and they don't get anything in return
> and they don't bother to explain to people what is happening to them, why and what future awaits them!"

The consumer price of electricity in EU will rise by 80 per cent. The rise is due to rise in gas and oil price, also profiteering b dealers in their purchase of gas and oil from various sources such as Russia and India which has made a lot of money from reselling them to needed countries.

This is going to be a big issue to the EU which can be seen in the protest. However, all these can be easily solved if EU pay them to offset the rise in consumer price of electricity. However, make no mistake, EU has strong economy and is also a welfare state. Hence, as EU is a welfare state and has a strong economy, EU will not have to be worried now about not able to pay its local people.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 1:25:21 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 2:43:02 AM UTC-4, stoney wrote:
> > On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 7:25:06 AM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 6:26:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > > > ltlee1, <news:0fe4441b-ddce-43e8...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > For instance, one could assume that the US has little problem if Ukrainians
> > > > > and Russians hardened their hatred toward each other. How about other NATO
> > > > > nations? German? France?
> > > > In Russia, there's no hatred toward Ukrainians. I wrote before, the
> > > > aim of the military action is declared (as well as seen by the vast
> > > > Russia's majority) against the regime rather than the people.
> > > > Russian media don't promote anti-Ukrainian narratives in national or
> > > > ethnic sense (some marginal haters in blogs may be, but not the mass
> > > > media). In turn, the Kiev regime's propaganda promotes hatred toward
> > > > the Russians en masse as an ethnic / national kind (and they started
> > > > unwinding it long before 2022.02). So it is not an exaggeration to
> > > > say the Kiev regime represents certain Nazi(-like) characteristics.
> > > >
> > > > Ukraine's WW2-Nazi nostalgists, mostly linked with the west-Ukraine,
> > > > promoted nation-hateful narratives even long before 2014, but after
> > > > they managed to [anti-democratically] usurp power through the 2014
> > > > coup, all these hatreds became promoted by the regime's propaganda
> > > > in the mainstream.
> > > >
> > > > Against that, it would be grossly misleading to try to describe it
> > > > in such simplistic tribalist terms like "they hardened their hatred
> > > > toward each other".
> > > To be sure, there must be Ukrainians and Russians who are willing to turn the other cheek.
> > > Nevertheless, both sides of a military conflict invariably hardened their hatred toward each
> > > other side. People from each side had their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers (and female
> > > equivalent if large number of women participated in the fight) killed by the opposite side.
> > > The emotional response, inevitably, will have a large dose of hate.
> > >
> > > Of course, mutual hatred could be resolved to various degress with appropriate post war
> > > settlement.
> > It is unlikely the West will turn off their hateful propaganda because the West wants Zelensky to keep talking in return for weapons an d money for foods. At one point, Zelensky crony said Russia fired 50 missiles a day on Ukraine. Hence,
> > the West in fact uses Zelensky as their voice of US propaganda department on Russia and China and even those countries that supported sanctions on Russia. In short, each time Zelensky cooked up saying 50 missiles were fired on Ukraine, US will send 5 billion dollars per month worth of weapons and ammunitions, mercenaries, money, and foods to Ukraine to support their war on Russia.
> Is the West monolithic over the conflict? To the degree that NATO has a say over a member
> nation's policy and politics, member nations are by default divided nations. The leaders
> have to answer to its people and to fulfill NATO responsibility. The two goals could be in conflict.
>
> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/in-prague-it-begins/
> " Tens of thousands of Czechs protested in Prague against the government to demand more
> state help with rising energy bills, the largest manifestation of public discontent over the worst
> cost-of-living crisis in three decades.
>
> About 70,000 people filled Wenceslas Square in the center of the Czech capital on Saturday,
> according to police estimates, with some carrying signs denouncing the country’s membership
> of the European Union and the NATO military alliance.
>
> Czech inflation, driven mainly by surging housing costs and spiking energy prices, is currently
> the highest since 1993 and the central bank forecasts it to peak at around 20% in the coming months.
>
> The Czech PM dismissed it all as a conclave of Russian sympathizers and dupes. Are the Russians
> exploiting this? Of course they are! But the fact remains that life has become very hard economically
> in Czechia.
> ...
> Meanwhile, in the UK, 60 percent of British factories may fail, crushed by exorbitant energy prices. If
> six in ten British factories fail, Britain is going to be crippled, and probably will have a depression.
> ...
> UPDATE: Now, in Bucharest. Here's an article (in Romanian) sent to me by one of my friends in Romania.
> He said that the author, former Prime Minister Victor Ponta, is not considered to be a credible character,
> but the sentiment he expresses here is widely shared in that country. ...
> An excerpt:
> However, there are big differences between the European countries that are suffering -- some in the
> West are so rich that they have the "audacity" to suffer for 10 years without really feeling it; others from
> the East are making a big fuss, they find tricky but effective solutions to save their economy and population;
> and others, like Romania, give everything, they don't ask for anything and they don't get anything in return
> and they don't bother to explain to people what is happening to them, why and what future awaits them!"

NATO currently has 30 members, 27.5 of them are clearly European (Turkey is both European and Asian)
but NATO is dominated by the US. NATO membership comes with its benefit. But it is time to payback. To join
America's non-war war against Russia, many things are falling apart. Well, according to Tucker Carlson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn6c-UkqlHo

People are preparing for a cold and dark winter now. How cold and how dark is still anyone's guess.
Government offices will without doubt coming off find. How about average citizens? IF, not, 70,000 people
filling Wenceslas Square in the center of the Czech capital would be the new normal.