I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable. I have finally
talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
something.

I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
old. She just doesn't need that.

Any reputable sites would be welcomed.

TIA

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

sticks wrote:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
> something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA

Check out Micro Center:
https://www.microcenter.com/category/4294967292,519/refurbished-desktops
It looks like most of them are W10.
I have never bought a refurb or on sale deal there but other wise I get
all my comp parts from them because I can drive there and get the part.
That way AM-Fed-UP-PS won't be able to leave it on the front walkway in
the rain for a day.

Paul in Houston TX <Paul@Houston.Texas> wrote:

> sticks wrote:
>
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
>> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
>> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
>> something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
>> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Check out Micro Center:
> https://www.microcenter.com/category/4294967292,519/refurbished-desktops
> It looks like most of them are W10.

Just be careful when buying a refurb that an OS is included. Also note
which version of the OS is included, and if you'll get the license
sticker, and a standalone license (not one sliced out from a volume
license). Not all of them (when I pick the local store to me) include
an OS, and not all that do are Windows 10. Microcenter has a lot of
Dells and HPs. Likely those came from companies that scrap their old
corporate workstations with new ones. Some companies will wipe the
drives as a security measure, so it'll be up to you to install the OS
including all the mobo and other hardware drivers.

From my local Microcomputer store, they have 31 refurbs. 1 has Win 10
Home, 26 have Win 10 Pro (likely scrapped corporate workstations), and 1
has Win 11 Pro, leaving 3 with no OS. You absolutely must ascertain an
Windows license is included, and how the OS is installed (you might get
just a Dell recovery CD that is usable on only some Dell models, and
assumes the license on the sticker is a standalone license and not for a
volume license).

If you want someplace where you can return the system, make sure you
bought from a local computer shop, and check their return policies.
Even if they allow free returns (no restocking fee), they likely will
not cover any return shipping cost. Check how long you have for
returns. Microcenter allows 15 days which sounds like a lot until after
you buy, get home, put together, troubleshooting any problems,
repackage, and take back to the store. Local electronics salvage or
recycling shops are not where you get refurbished or working systems.
Those are where you find parts that you'll have to determine if usable.
Find computer retailers that have a refurb inventory.

The salesmen are eager to sell. However, for a return, you'll likely
get the attitude "you should've been expert in knowing what you bought".

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable. I have finally
> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
> something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
> old. She just doesn't need that.

Is her laptop broken? Has she placed additional requirements on what it
will run that mandates a faster computer, or more memory, or more disk
space or faster drives, or more USB ports, or what? Is the OS an old
and unsupported version that she is having problems installing new
software (or is that your job, and you need a later OS version for
software compatibility)? What is the driving essentials mandating she
get a new, and different, computer? Consumers often buy new cars (or
newer used cars) because they contrive the requirements when there
really aren't any. They get a new car because they want a new car.

I'm still driving around a 2002 Subaru, and it is in excellent condition
due to effective preventative maintenance. My circa 2019 Windows 10
desktop build will last beyond the Oct 2025 lifecycle for that OS, and
probably until about 2031 (6 years after discontinued support). Laptops
don't fare as well for longevity (~5 years), and why consumers see them
as disposable computers with an even shorter longevity for smart phones
(~2.5 years).

Who does the sysadmin function on her laptop, and now her new/refurb
desktop? You? If so, what happens in 3 years when Win 10 support dies?
Who does the image backups, and how often? Will you have all the
drivers needed to run on the old OS for that hardware? Something is
pushing the need for newer hardware, but retaining an old OS. The first
wasn't mentioned. The second is avoiding unfamiliarity.

I can't see her doing e-mail, web browsing, letter writing, and other
typical end-user tasks really mandates new hardware for her. If the
unidentified laptop is over 5 years old, probably time to get a new
battery. If the laptop's monitor has become too small for her aging
eyes, get a monitor to hook up to the laptop, and probably also get a
keyboard and mouse (and a powered USB hub) to get her off the crappy
laptop's keyboard and touchpad.

Remember that no matter how lofty sounding the term, refurbished still
means used.

I know it would be considered heresy here, but for about half the cost
of a Win10 refurb w/monitor and keyboard (my Microcenter lists just 1
for $600), you could get her a new Chromebook. All depends on what she
does with her computer, and what software she considers critical, if
any. A lot of users way over-buy for how they will really use a
computer.

If her old laptop is somehow broken, Microcenter also has laptop
refurbs. Since you say she doesn't want to learn a new version of
Windows (11), Microcenter has Win10 laptop refurbs, too. If the old
laptop isn't broken, why does she need new hardware (desktop PC) that
possibly isn't any better than her old laptop, or might be better in
benchmarks, but won't help with how she uses the computer? What bang
for the buck will she actually attain with a refurb desktop PC? Just
because it's a desktop doesn't mandate she will find it is better for
her.

She has a broom and dustpan that have worked for her for many years.
What's a battery-powered vacuum going to give her other than the
nuisance of having to empty a dust cup to inhale the dust, having to
recharge the battery, and scare her cat (and where the broom and dustpan
worked well for sweeping up the cat litter versus cordless vacuums that
can barely pick up cat litter)? Newer doesn't mandate better despite
the sales mantra consumers are exposed to all the time from marketers.
What's bad about her old laptop? She isn't the one pushing to replace
it. You are. Is it really you who wants her to have a better desktop,
so you can use it? Instead of the old hand saw, give your wife a new
miter saw with roller stand. Guess who that gift is really for.

VanguardLH wrote:
> Paul in Houston TX <Paul@Houston.Texas> wrote:
>
>> sticks wrote:
>>
>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
>>> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
>>> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
>>> something.
>>>
>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
>>> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Check out Micro Center:
>> https://www.microcenter.com/category/4294967292,519/refurbished-desktops
>> It looks like most of them are W10.
>
> Just be careful when buying a refurb that an OS is included. Also note
> which version of the OS is included, and if you'll get the license
> sticker, and a standalone license (not one sliced out from a volume
> license). Not all of them (when I pick the local store to me) include
> an OS, and not all that do are Windows 10. Microcenter has a lot of
> Dells and HPs. Likely those came from companies that scrap their old
> corporate workstations with new ones. Some companies will wipe the
> drives as a security measure, so it'll be up to you to install the OS
> including all the mobo and other hardware drivers.
>
> From my local Microcomputer store, they have 31 refurbs. 1 has Win 10
> Home, 26 have Win 10 Pro (likely scrapped corporate workstations), and 1
> has Win 11 Pro, leaving 3 with no OS. You absolutely must ascertain an
> Windows license is included, and how the OS is installed (you might get
> just a Dell recovery CD that is usable on only some Dell models, and
> assumes the license on the sticker is a standalone license and not for a
> volume license).
>
> If you want someplace where you can return the system, make sure you
> bought from a local computer shop, and check their return policies.
> Even if they allow free returns (no restocking fee), they likely will
> not cover any return shipping cost. Check how long you have for
> returns. Microcenter allows 15 days which sounds like a lot until after
> you buy, get home, put together, troubleshooting any problems,
> repackage, and take back to the store. Local electronics salvage or
> recycling shops are not where you get refurbished or working systems.
> Those are where you find parts that you'll have to determine if usable.
> Find computer retailers that have a refurb inventory.
>
> The salesmen are eager to sell. However, for a return, you'll likely
> get the attitude "you should've been expert in knowing what you bought".

Good advice all.
Microcenter does like to sell and a buyer should have a good idea what
they want before going there.

Oh, to add to Paul's suggestion for Microcenter (and whether they have a
retail store within driving distance to you), you can get refurbs from
Newegg, too.

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100019095%204016

They'll have to be shipped to you. Some come with free shipping (to
you). Check their returns on cost of shipping (back to them).

Newegg doesn't have retail stores. They started out as the Egghead
retail stores, and then went to online-only sales as Newegg.

I know some folks liked to shop at Fry's. I've ever bought from there.
Alas, they died back in Feb 2021 citing Covid19 and every-changing
retail market as causes.

We don't know where you are. I'm in the USA. You could be over in
Europe. So suggestions from respondents for where they are could be
irrelevant to where you are.

For a local retailer selling refurbs, try an online search on
"refurbished desktop computer <yourcity>". For those with web sites,
check those to see if they sell refurbs, how those compare to buying
new, their return policy, and exactly how an OS license is included.

On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to
> refurbished systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.
> I have finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system
> instead of the laptop she has, and would appreciate any
> recommendations for where to look for something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost
> 80 years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA

It's actually a complicated topic, as the choices are not
all equal, and the results may be quite unexpected for you.

I've continually learned, from buying stuff for family,
that my glossy view of the world, does not match their
view of what "success" is.

*******

Are you looking for a Win7 platform ? Windows Update works
without a fight, for a Skylake processor. The best way to
update a Windows 7 installation, might be a WSUSOffline USB
stick you made some years ago. There might be a cumulative or
two missing from that, plus the last update has the "EOL Warning",
which isn't too nasty in this case (it's not one of those bands
across the screen that refuses to move).

I think support for Windows 8.1 ended, and there are not likely
to be any easy ways to get media for that. The "install only" keys
are no longer valid (the ones from Germany), so you can't even do
an install any more with those keys. It will only do the
install process with valid keys.

That leaves Windows 10 as a still-supported OS, that runs on a
decent selection of processors. Refurbisher rules generally
force the individual doing the refurb, to some version of OS
they may not want to be putting on the PC. With the need for
a TPM and the desire for MBEC support, it may be more difficult
for Microsoft to be offering only Win11 Refurb media for those
companies refurbishing PCs.

Refurbished PCs are carried in a number of "bazaar" stores.
For example, Staples is a bazaar seller online (carries little
stock of its own, relatively speaking). Best Buy, I think their
online section is also "baaaar" format. The items are not
in the store, and they can be drop-shipped to you from some
small outfit in the same country. Walmart might have Chinese
sellers in their "bazaar".

In the past, the Win7 refurbs, those were coming from JoySystems.
All of the examples above, might have carried the same Joysystems
stock. Now, things have changed a bit, in that a small store in
your own town or city, can be refurbishing PCs (quality issues...).

The condition of the PC is usually "deception". For example,
mine is an "A grade" which is not an A grade and has damage
around the plugin card area. And that damage is mightily annoying
as well (the plate keeps falling off, and there's no way to bodge
some screws to fix it once and for all).

You can get MT (mid-tower), SFF, USFF sized units. MT take standard ATX power
supplies, making them slightly easier to repair. The original power
supplies are usually pretty reliable. It's not like you will be
receiving an EMachine as a refurb. The machines are corporate
lease returns from Dell or HP or whatever.

The current generation are quad core. You can look up the
processor description on Ark.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark.html

There are five pages of single-threaded benchmarks here, for
determining how good the processor is. They used to load all the
processors in a single page, but they're worried about the bandwidth
used for that.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

A refurb should have 8GB of RAM, as a minimum. You want standards
which are still supported. DDR3 production stopped in March, leaving
DDR4 or DDR5 as easily available with wide selection. For example,
I wanted to put some SODIMMs in my laptop, but being a twit, I'm
too late to get a couple DDR3 ones. Stock is cleaned out, nobody
stockpiled DDR3.

A refurb will "come with a 320GB WD Blue". This is not a plum, and
may have been in the machine while on lease. Small store refurbishers
will put items like this in the machine. Windows 10 works a bit better
with an SSD, and will make a better first impression with one. SSD prices
will be rising this year, buy early, buy often. I warned people last
year, to put a spare SSD in their sock drawer for when they need
one at a decent price. The prices are already rising (NAND production
was throttled around third quarter last year).

The integrated graphics on modern machines, are good enough, and might
still be within support. For example, my Optiplex 780, the integrated
graphics in there, no longer have good enough drivers, and Win10
will only upgrade itself to 21H2. To install 22H2, I needed to put
a vid card from the junk room in it. Your refurb today, should
easily be better than the 780, and no driver problem to be expected.

Machines with integrated graphics, may have a DisplayPort and an HDMI
port on the back. The monitor you purchase, will at minimum have an
HDMI. I recommend also having a VGA port, and if the crap does not
behave itself, you slap an HDMI to VGA adapter into the cable
chain, to make the monitor work. On the order of $20 for that.
I got an Acer monitor at Staples for a bit over $100, and it had
HDMI and VGA on the back. The HDMI is "picky" about sources, the
VGA always works. My fleet of active adapters, is how I solve problems
like that. So if it black screens when you first get it, you'll need
to look at an alternate "from-to" solution for the cabling.

Keyboard and mouse ? Microsoft is getting out of the kbd/mouse business.
That means no "stable/mainstream items". The stock at the computer store
was "weird". $150 keyboards only a teenager would like, $25 keyboards
of unknown parentage. I was afraid to go look in the mouse section,
to see what cruft is left there.

Good luck,

Paul

On 1/1/2024 9:12 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>
> Check out Micro Center:
> https://www.microcenter.com/category/4294967292,519/refurbished-desktops
> It looks like most of them are W10.
> I have never bought a refurb or on sale deal there but other wise I get
> all my comp parts from them because I can drive there and get the part.
> That way AM-Fed-UP-PS won't be able to leave it on the front walkway in
> the rain for a day.

OK, I'm adding Microcenter to the list.
Prices are not too bad. I've been seeing these HP EliteDesk 800 G1
around, and think they would be a good fit for the MIL. I realize these
don't have built in wi-fi, but other than that this would be a huge jump
from where she's at now and probably all she needs. Something like this:

<https://www.microcenter.com/product/611905/hp-elitedesk-800-g1-desktop-computer-(refurbished)>

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/2/24 09:50 AM, sticks wrote:
> I've been seeing these HP EliteDesk 800 G1 around, and think they would be a good fit for the MIL.  I realize these
> don't have built in wi-fi
First: What is "MIL"?

Second: I too don't see wifi but the CPU lists "Intel My WiFi Technology". Not sure what the disconnect is. I thought
wi-fi was a given, especially with 10/100/1000 nic.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

On 1/1/24 09:28 PM, sticks wrote:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished systems for sale that I thought we're pretty
> reasonable.  I have finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she has, and would
> appreciate any recommendations for where to look for something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her, especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11
> at almost 80 years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA
>
>
My wife got a new PC lately and it came with Windows 11. She jumped from Win10 and Word 2007 to Win 11 and Word 2021.
One hell of a leap. She isn't a wiz at PCs and @ 77yrs, she can't remember tiny details unless repeated often. Not
senile but not her forte. But she learned, leaning on my advice and help. She's quite good at it now.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

On 1/2/2024 12:13 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable. I have finally
>> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
>> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
>> something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
>> old. She just doesn't need that.
>
> Is her laptop broken? Has she placed additional requirements on what it
> will run that mandates a faster computer, or more memory, or more disk
> space or faster drives, or more USB ports, or what? Is the OS an old
> and unsupported version that she is having problems installing new
> software (or is that your job, and you need a later OS version for
> software compatibility)? What is the driving essentials mandating she
> get a new, and different, computer? Consumers often buy new cars (or
> newer used cars) because they contrive the requirements when there
> really aren't any. They get a new car because they want a new car.

She bought this laptop probably around 10 years ago. I had just
finished setting up the FIL with his laptop and her older desktop (XP)
broke down. She couldn't wait for me to help her in choosing because
she can't go a day without one without experiencing serious withdrawal.
It was a windows 7 machine, that I upgraded to win 10, imaged, and
helped get her email and browser set up.

She's been complaining that she gets "booted off" when she visits a
particular type of website. She's a bit of a conspiracy believing type.
I figured that was silly, but went and took a look. Other than doing
a few things I wouldn't, it really seemed to be uncluttered and working
OK. Then about 15 minutes in it did lose it's wi-fi connection. The
wi-fi was still good from the router, so I uninstalled it, and
restarted. I watched about a half hour of videos, and told her that
hopefully it just had a corrupted install and would be better now. Then
I explained some of the reasons for updating.

Wi-fi radio is most likely turning to toast (going there now to put a
usb receiver temporarily)
Her laptop has the small soft battery inside and not easily removable,
that is completely junk. She just leaves it plugged in all the time for
years now, and it will eventually need to be taken apart and replaced,
or it will swell up and make a mess of things.
Restarting took quite some time to get to a screen, like a half hour or
so. I could use the backup image and restore it, but instead chose to
use the situation to talk her into a desktop that would be far easier to
work on, be safer, and would be much faster for when she's using it.

--snip--

> Who does the sysadmin function on her laptop, and now her new/refurb
> desktop? You? If so, what happens in 3 years when Win 10 support dies?
> Who does the image backups, and how often? Will you have all the
> drivers needed to run on the old OS for that hardware? Something is
> pushing the need for newer hardware, but retaining an old OS. The first
> wasn't mentioned. The second is avoiding unfamiliarity.
>
> I can't see her doing e-mail, web browsing, letter writing, and other
> typical end-user tasks really mandates new hardware for her. If the
> unidentified laptop is over 5 years old, probably time to get a new
> battery. If the laptop's monitor has become too small for her aging
> eyes, get a monitor to hook up to the laptop, and probably also get a
> keyboard and mouse (and a powered USB hub) to get her off the crappy
> laptop's keyboard and touchpad.
>
> Remember that no matter how lofty sounding the term, refurbished still
> means used.

She's just an old gal that only has me to do these things for her.
Fortunately, I don't mind the time or expense, but there are limits. It
would be silly to get her a new system she would have no idea how to
fully use, nor need to do so.

> I know it would be considered heresy here, but for about half the cost
> of a Win10 refurb w/monitor and keyboard (my Microcenter lists just 1
> for $600), you could get her a new Chromebook. All depends on what she
> does with her computer, and what software she considers critical, if
> any. A lot of users way over-buy for how they will really use a
> computer.

Chromebooks are out of the question.

> If her old laptop is somehow broken, Microcenter also has laptop
> refurbs. Since you say she doesn't want to learn a new version of
> Windows (11), Microcenter has Win10 laptop refurbs, too. If the old
> laptop isn't broken, why does she need new hardware (desktop PC) that
> possibly isn't any better than her old laptop, or might be better in
> benchmarks, but won't help with how she uses the computer? What bang
> for the buck will she actually attain with a refurb desktop PC? Just
> because it's a desktop doesn't mandate she will find it is better for
> her.

She used desktops for years and knows the difference. They just decided
having laptops would somehow be simpler for them, not taking into
consideration the pain in the ass they are to work on, get parts for,
and the slower speeds from desktop hardware. I also think they just
felt like having a laptop would somehow make them hip. I think they're
past that now.

> She has a broom and dustpan that have worked for her for many years.
> What's a battery-powered vacuum going to give her other than the
> nuisance of having to empty a dust cup to inhale the dust, having to
> recharge the battery, and scare her cat (and where the broom and dustpan
> worked well for sweeping up the cat litter versus cordless vacuums that
> can barely pick up cat litter)? Newer doesn't mandate better despite
> the sales mantra consumers are exposed to all the time from marketers.
> What's bad about her old laptop? She isn't the one pushing to replace
> it. You are. Is it really you who wants her to have a better desktop,
> so you can use it? Instead of the old hand saw, give your wife a new
> miter saw with roller stand. Guess who that gift is really for.

I got three of my own systems that thankfully are all running pretty
good right now, thanks in part to advise from you and some of the other
great people here. Trust me, I don't need to drive an hour to my MIL's
house to play on her fancy used computer.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/2/2024 12:24 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Oh, to add to Paul's suggestion for Microcenter (and whether they have a
> retail store within driving distance to you), you can get refurbs from
> Newegg, too.
>
> https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100019095%204016

NewEgg is added to the list of places. Thanks

> We don't know where you are. I'm in the USA. You could be over in
> Europe. So suggestions from respondents for where they are could be
> irrelevant to where you are.

I'm in the USA.

>
> For a local retailer selling refurbs, try an online search on
> "refurbished desktop computer <yourcity>". For those with web sites,
> check those to see if they sell refurbs, how those compare to buying
> new, their return policy, and exactly how an OS license is included.

I also have used craigslist and ebay in the past. This post is coming
from the $50 craigslist box in my heated garage. I would do that again
if the local guys had anything respectable, but right now there is
little in the way of desktops I see any reason to look at. Lots of
crappy laptops, though.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

Big Al wrote:

> First:  What is "MIL"?

usually 'mother-in-law'

On 1/2/2024 2:13 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to
>> refurbished systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.
>> I have finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system
>> instead of the laptop she has, and would appreciate any
>> recommendations for where to look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost
>> 80 years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>
> It's actually a complicated topic, as the choices are not
> all equal, and the results may be quite unexpected for you.
>
> I've continually learned, from buying stuff for family,
> that my glossy view of the world, does not match their
> view of what "success" is.

Amen to that! It's not the initial shiny new object on her desk I'm
worried about pleasing her with. She don't know much, but she does seem
to be able to find all the inevitable weaknesses in just about anything.
All my older relatives seem to have that ability these days. ;-)

> *******
>
> Are you looking for a Win7 platform ? Windows Update works
> without a fight, for a Skylake processor.

Win7 original would probably work, but I would prefer to have a fresh
install of win 10, which does seem to be the norm on these refurb sites.

> That leaves Windows 10 as a still-supported OS, that runs on a
> decent selection of processors. Refurbisher rules generally
> force the individual doing the refurb, to some version of OS
> they may not want to be putting on the PC. With the need for
> a TPM and the desire for MBEC support, it may be more difficult
> for Microsoft to be offering only Win11 Refurb media for those
> companies refurbishing PCs.
>
> Refurbished PCs are carried in a number of "bazaar" stores.
> For example, Staples is a bazaar seller online (carries little
> stock of its own, relatively speaking). Best Buy, I think their
> online section is also "baaaar" format. The items are not
> in the store, and they can be drop-shipped to you from some
> small outfit in the same country. Walmart might have Chinese
> sellers in their "bazaar".

It certainly is always risky going the refurb route as opposed to just
getting something new. I could afford to get her the new, but it would
be a waste of money, especially when I think of how much beer the
difference in cost could buy. Since I almost never drink, it might be a
lifetime's worth.

--snip--

> A refurb should have 8GB of RAM, as a minimum. You want standards
> which are still supported. DDR3 production stopped in March, leaving
> DDR4 or DDR5 as easily available with wide selection. For example,
> I wanted to put some SODIMMs in my laptop, but being a twit, I'm
> too late to get a couple DDR3 ones. Stock is cleaned out, nobody
> stockpiled DDR3.

I just went through that on a laptop and a desktop to get them to 8GB.
You helped me with that. First one was bad, but they imediately sent
another and it greatly helped this box. The ones I'm looking at and
want to get her into all seem to have 16GB of DDR4, which will be good
for her I think

> A refurb will "come with a 320GB WD Blue". This is not a plum, and
> may have been in the machine while on lease. Small store refurbishers
> will put items like this in the machine. Windows 10 works a bit better
> with an SSD, and will make a better first impression with one. SSD prices
> will be rising this year, buy early, buy often. I warned people last
> year, to put a spare SSD in their sock drawer for when they need
> one at a decent price. The prices are already rising (NAND production
> was throttled around third quarter last year).

Yes, I've been following your stuff on SSD's. I realize my MIL would
know none of the possible downsides, but neither would she know about
when her spinning disk is ready to puke. I think it is worth it to get
her into one because of the speed increase. I'll backup with an image
and let her beat it up. It'll be a light beating, I'm sure.

>
> The integrated graphics on modern machines, are good enough, and might
> still be within support. For example, my Optiplex 780, the integrated
> graphics in there, no longer have good enough drivers, and Win10
> will only upgrade itself to 21H2. To install 22H2, I needed to put
> a vid card from the junk room in it. Your refurb today, should
> easily be better than the 780, and no driver problem to be expected.
>
> Machines with integrated graphics, may have a DisplayPort and an HDMI
> port on the back. The monitor you purchase, will at minimum have an
> HDMI. I recommend also having a VGA port, and if the crap does not
> behave itself, you slap an HDMI to VGA adapter into the cable
> chain, to make the monitor work. On the order of $20 for that.
> I got an Acer monitor at Staples for a bit over $100, and it had
> HDMI and VGA on the back. The HDMI is "picky" about sources, the
> VGA always works. My fleet of active adapters, is how I solve problems
> like that. So if it black screens when you first get it, you'll need
> to look at an alternate "from-to" solution for the cabling.

Good thing to remember. I'll probably also be getting her a new
monitor, and have to remember to make sure it is easily connected to
what is on the new used box.

>
> Keyboard and mouse ? Microsoft is getting out of the kbd/mouse business.
> That means no "stable/mainstream items". The stock at the computer store
> was "weird". $150 keyboards only a teenager would like, $25 keyboards
> of unknown parentage. I was afraid to go look in the mouse section,
> to see what cruft is left there.

If these systems come with KB and Mouse, they're probably junk, and kind
of expect to have to upgrade her on that too. It's my wife's mommy. If
it also make the wife happy, I've got two birds with one stone.

> Good luck,
>
> Paul

As always, thanks Paul!

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/2/2024 9:12 AM, Big Al wrote:
> On 1/2/24 09:50 AM, sticks wrote:
>> I've been seeing these HP EliteDesk 800 G1 around, and think they
>> would be a good fit for the MIL.  I realize these don't have built in
>> wi-fi
> First:  What is "MIL"?

Mother In Law

> Second: I too don't see wifi but the CPU lists "Intel My WiFi
> Technology".  Not sure what the disconnect is.  I thought wi-fi was a
> given, especially with 10/100/1000 nic.

I think it's a way they saved expense on these "work" desktops. They
are/were usually connected by wire if they were not laptops. I had the
reverse happen with my brother and a laptop that puked over a year
earlier. I got it working and told him I would get all the updates on
it since he was living out of an RV and didn't have wired availability.
Went to plug in the cable, and no connection. Wi-Fi only. First time I
had seen that. Fortunately, the newer Wi-fi adapter was fast.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/2/2024 9:17 AM, Big Al wrote:
> On 1/1/24 09:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
> My wife got a new PC lately and it came with Windows 11.  She jumped
> from Win10 and Word 2007 to Win 11 and Word 2021. One hell of a leap.
> She isn't a wiz at PCs and @ 77yrs, she can't remember tiny details
> unless repeated often.  Not senile but not her forte.  But she learned,
> leaning on my advice and help.  She's quite good at it now.

Good for her!
I'm sure the MIL after an hour using it probably would not even know
what operating system she has. But since she is adamant she doesn't
want Win 11, that's not a fight I want to have. Hell I do have one
laptop disk with a working win 11 system on it, but I don't use it and
have it running Win 10 instead. I suppose I should pop it in every once
and a while to get familiar with the OS.

But it does bring to mind the question of whether anyone has a good site
that explains the differences or benefits of the two (10-11).

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 1/2/24 11:07 AM, sticks wrote:
> On 1/2/2024 9:17 AM, Big Al wrote:
>> On 1/1/24 09:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished systems for sale that I thought we're pretty
>>> reasonable.  I have finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she has, and would
>>> appreciate any recommendations for where to look for something.
>>>
>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her, especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows
>>> 11 at almost 80 years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>>
>>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>>
>> My wife got a new PC lately and it came with Windows 11.  She jumped from Win10 and Word 2007 to Win 11 and Word 2021.
>> One hell of a leap. She isn't a wiz at PCs and @ 77yrs, she can't remember tiny details unless repeated often.  Not
>> senile but not her forte.  But she learned, leaning on my advice and help.  She's quite good at it now.
>
> Good for her!
> I'm sure the MIL after an hour using it probably would not even know what operating system she has.  But since she is
> adamant she doesn't want Win 11, that's not a fight I want to have.  Hell I do have one laptop disk with a working win
> 11 system on it, but I don't use it and have it running Win 10 instead.  I suppose I should pop it in every once and a
> while to get familiar with the OS.
>
> But it does bring to mind the question of whether anyone has a good site that explains the differences or benefits of
> the two (10-11).
>
Other than EOL on Win 10, I don't see much diff between the 2. I'm still on 10 and hopping on her machine isn't that
much. Yes, they moved some things around, and I do like the new "settings".
I had to change the right-click content in explorer back to win 10 style. But those are my big deals off hand.
She's simply Mail, web, word, excel, and a some program to view pics.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

sticks wrote on 1/1/24 7:28 PM:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
> something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA
>
>
With Win10 ending in Oct 2025, your best choices are Linux or Windows 11.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> Big Al wrote:
>
>> First:  What is "MIL"?
>
> Mother In Law

Mothers have to love you. Mothers-in-law you have to cajole into liking
you. Hmm, who is paying for the desktop refurb?

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I also have used craigslist and ebay in the past. This post is coming
> from the $50 craigslist box in my heated garage. I would do that again
> if the local guys had anything respectable, but right now there is
> little in the way of desktops I see any reason to look at. Lots of
> crappy laptops, though.

I used to visit Craigslist, and use to sell there, too. Anything I
sold, even if brand new, got an immediate discount of 60% of my cost, or
less depending on demand and condition. To me, it was used no matter if
even in perfect condition, and used stuff should never sell at full
price. Some sellers there are way too attached to their wares, and
asking near full price, and some more than retail price. Some sell new
wares, at near full price, but forget that they are unlikely to qualify
as a retailer to validate for warranty service for the product. Selling
at the price, say, of Walmart is stupid since I can return to Walmart,
or get warranty service.

A janitor had a broken mop bucket (bucket and wringer combined on
wheels). He was going to visit Menards to buy a new one when his wife
suggested to look on Craiglist. My aunt had bought one, but the only
place she could use it were in the bathroom and kitchen on the linoleum
floors. I filled it up, and asked her to move it. She then realized it
was far too heavy for her to roll around, and a pain to fill. Put it on
Craigslist for 50% what I paid at Menards. The janitor saw it, and
snatched it up. Other than a test fill with just clean water, the item
was in brand-new condition, and he got a good price.

It's terrible the price gouging that goes on at Craigslist. Same at
eBay. At the start, I used to put an item at eBay on bids (I quit that,
and now anything I put there is Buy Now). I'd get someone who didn't
bother to check retail prices at name-brand stores in their area. When
they went near or over retail price, I'd send them a note that they bid
too high, and where they could get it cheaper. Some didn't care, some
thanked me. I once sold a chessboard and men carved by hand by an Inuit
tribe (near top of Hudson bay). I was prospecting there, and brought
cargo loads of fruits. Fruit peels strewn everywhere. In appreciation,
they made and gave me a chess set. After about 30 years, I put it on
Craigslist. No one left with which to play. I expected $70 to $140,
but bidding went crazy between 2 competitors. I contacted them to
inquire why so high (when they went over $400). They were collectors,
knew well each other, and each wanted the rare chess set. Sold at
$1700. I was pleased, but I wanted to ensure the bidders were honest
(they weren't making spurious bids), and realized how high they'd gone.

Gotta be careful at Craiglist from so many sellers there asking far too
high a price on used goods. Needed to replace an office chair, but the
Craiglisters were too high, so I bought it retail from Staples on a
sale. Even if brand-new in-the-box, Craiglisters may not provide a
sales receipt, and even if they do the product warranty might not accept
their hand-written reciept. Gotta watch eBay prices, too.

I recall selling an old build (I always build my own desktops) for about
$50 that originally cost over $2500 (in just the parts, no idea what a
pre-built would've cost) about 4 years earlier. I really just wanted to
get rid of it although it was a very good desktop. Just didn't have a
need nor space to network it (although now I do). Anything I sell at
Craigslist has a minimum price. Even stuff that I would advertise for
free gets a $5 price, and when the buyer shows up then I just give it to
them. I found anything for free at Craigslist gets tons of vacuous
inquiries and no-shows on appointments for pickup. Having any price
gets rid of a lot of the dishonest or unmotivated buyers.

There are a lot of Craigslist buyers that find stuff there that use it
to amass items to include in the garage sales, but at higher prices.
They show up, and ask what else you have to sell (although Craigslist
allows you to add a link to your auctions to find your other ones).
Anything they can stock up for their garage sale they'll take. Got rid
of a lot of camping, fishing, and hiking gear that way.

sticks wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:12 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> sticks wrote:
>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>>> look for something.
>>>
>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>>
>>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>
>> Check out Micro Center:
>> https://www.microcenter.com/category/4294967292,519/refurbished-desktops
>> It looks like most of them are W10.
>> I have never bought a refurb or on sale deal there but other wise I
>> get all my comp parts from them because I can drive there and get the
>> part.
>> That way AM-Fed-UP-PS won't be able to leave it on the front walkway
>> in the rain for a day.
>
> OK, I'm adding Microcenter to the list.
> Prices are not too bad.  I've been seeing these HP EliteDesk 800 G1
> around, and think they would be a good fit for the MIL.  I realize these
> don't have built in wi-fi, but other than that this would be a huge jump
> from where she's at now and probably all she needs.  Something like this:
>
> <https://www.microcenter.com/product/611905/hp-elitedesk-800-g1-desktop-computer-(refurbished)>

We don't know what your MIL will use the comp for but keep in mind that
graphics are basic and the machine is for business and is not a gamer.
No intense graphics gaming for your MIL.
In my experience, having Wifi default in desktops is fairly recent or
high end. Instead of USB to wifi and if the 4x slot is available, I
would get a PCIe wifi card. That's one less protocol conversion needed.
Also, personally, I don't care about getting the latest and greatest
O/S. My gamer is W7 and should be good for many more years. The work
laptop is W10 and should be good for many years... unless my employer
changes requirements.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> She bought this laptop probably around 10 years ago. I had just
> finished setting up the FIL with his laptop and her older desktop
> (XP) broke down. She couldn't wait for me to help her in choosing
> because she can't go a day without one without experiencing serious
> withdrawal. It was a windows 7 machine, that I upgraded to win 10,
> imaged, and helped get her email and browser set up.

For whatever web browser she uses, does it update itself? Some sites
refuse to work or reduce their content when old versions of web browsers
visit them. Some will look at just the version of the web browser while
some will test the functions of the web browser to ensure it will
support the Javascript and HTML code in their web docs. Not sure what
"booted off" means unless it is the following wifi issue.

> Wi-fi radio is most likely turning to toast (going there now to put a
> usb receiver temporarily)

A USB dongle was my first thought. Go into the OS, disable the old NIC
hardware in devmgmt.msc, and go forward with the USB wifi dongle, but be
sure it isn't blocked or too far away from the wifi router or wifi
access point.

However, since it is a laptop, overheating may be the cause. Lint and
dust are thermal insulators. May need to dismantle the laptop case to
use compressed air to blow out the dust. If it gets too hot inside, the
CPU will throttle itself to reduce its workload and how much heat it
generates.

> Her laptop has the small soft battery inside and not easily removable,
> that is completely junk.

Hmm, in the laptops that I've worked on, the battery is a module that
snaps in and out of a recess inside the case under an access cover. Is
this a laptop, or notebook? Make and model? Might be a Youtube video
on it that you could use to figure out how to replace the battery, or
just disconnect it (although sometimes the battery is used as a
capacitor, so the computer won't power up without a battery).

> Restarting took quite some time to get to a screen, like a half hour
> or so.

Sounds like the corruption is user sourced. She's doing something to
cause the extended boot time, like installing software and allowing
anything to add itself as a startup program, installing crap software,
or even installing malware. When she logs into a Windows account, is it
an admin or user account? Might need to put her on a user (normal)
account which restricts her from installing anything. You'll have to be
on-call to do that for her just to protect her from herself.

> She used desktops for years and knows the difference. They just
> decided having laptops would somehow be simpler for them, not taking
> into consideration the pain in the ass they are to work on, get parts
> for, and the slower speeds from desktop hardware.

Decent laptops cost more than similar performing desktops. Ever
consider building the desktop yourself? They're not that hard
considering it's all modular: PSU, mobo, CPU and heatsink (and proper
application of thermal paste), drives, memory, etc just screw/push in
and cable up.

I've never liked pre-builts, because those are sold on specs, not what
is really inside. At work for our alpha lab, we had to quit getting
pre-builts from Dell and HP, because the specs were the same, but the
hardware was not even within the same model. We needed exact duplicates
of hardware to guarantee our testing. For the price of a pre-built, you
can get better quality hardware, but you are, of course, ignoring your
own time in the cost to do the build (that the pre-builts charge for).

Like Paul mentions, if you intend to save cost by getting a refurb, get
from a local store where you can ask questions about returns and OS
license. Prices can vary a lot even on the same make and model, so shop
around for best price, but consider, too, from where you buy.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I'm sure the MIL after an hour using [Windows 11] probably would not even know
> what operating system she has. But since she is adamant she doesn't
> want Win 11, that's not a fight I want to have. Hell I do have one
> laptop disk with a working win 11 system on it, but I don't use it and
> have it running Win 10 instead. I suppose I should pop it in every once
> and a while to get familiar with the OS.
>
> But it does bring to mind the question of whether anyone has a good
> site that explains the differences or benefits of the two (10-11).

You could get her a refurb with Windows 11, and slap OpenShell on it
which might make Windows 11 look enough like Windows 10 to placate her.

https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openshell+windows+11

It's like putting lipstick on a pig to pretty it up. The apps are still
going to look the same between them installed on Windows 10 versus
Windows 11, so it's mostly the Start menu and Taskbar that nuisances
Windows 10 users when they migrate to Windows 11. Once OpenShell is
installed, and if she doesn't visit Settings often, it'll look like
Windows 10 to her.

You could get a refurb with Windows 11, and put on OpenShell, a few
tweaks, and maybe she wouldn't know she was not on Windows 10. If she
complained about Windows 11 underneath, you could smash the setup with a
fresh install of Windows 10. Get the Win10 media creation tool from
Microsoft (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10),
and reuse the Win10 license from her laptop (which means she can no
longer use the laptop unless you put an unfettered Windows license on
the laptop which means just getting the license, and not having to do
another Win10 install).

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> But it does bring to mind the question of whether anyone has a good site
> that explains the differences or benefits of the two (10-11).

Online search on "windows 11 compare windows 10".

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compare-windows-11-home-vs-pro-versions
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/windows-11-vs-windows-10-a-comprehensive-comparison-of-features/m-p/3760255
https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/feature/Windows-11-vs-Windows-10-What-are-the-differences

and lots more online comparing 10 and 11.

Something else to consider is if she might want to now or later run
Android apps on her Windows desktop (without having to use an Android
emulator, like Bluestacks). She might like an app on her smartphone,
and could run it on Windows 11. I've not bothered to migrate from 10 to
11, so I've not tested running Android apps on Win 11.

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-get-started-android-apps-windows-11
https://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-run-android-apps-on-windows-11-3048569/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/android/wsa/

For example, I currently run the MS Outlook, Word, Excel, and Powerpoint
apps on my Android smartphone. Plus they're all free. They don't have
all the features of the desktop programs, but most users often utilize
only 90% of the MS Office programs, anyway. It's a way to get MS
programs (as apps) for free, and running on the Win 11 desktop instead
of having to run around finding the smart phone. My ISP has an Android
app for checking service status, resetting their cable modem, and other
functions. They also have a movie streaming app. Since I'm their
customer, I can watch some movies on my phone that are included (free)
with paying for their service. There are lots of sites that have their
own mobile apps (Android, and iOS) rather than visting their web site
via web browser. There are mobile apps for which there is no desktop
counterpart. With Windows 11, you can run Android apps on Windows 11.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I've been seeing these HP EliteDesk 800 G1 around, and think they
> would be a good fit for the MIL. I realize these don't have built in
> wi-fi, but other than that this would be a huge jump from where she's
> at now and probably all she needs. Something like this:
>
> <https://www.microcenter.com/product/611905/hp-elitedesk-800-g1-desktop-computer-(refurbished)>

You could look at getting a USB dongle for wifi. If USB ports are few
on the desktop, also get a powered USB hub (so you're not limited to the
power max across all ports from the 1 USB host port).

https://www.microcenter.com/product/603020/trendnet-tew-808ubm-micro-ac1200-wireless-usb-adapter,-mu-mimo,-dual-band-support-24ghz-5ghz,-supports-windows-mac-black
https://www.microcenter.com/product/496690/sabrent-usb-30-4-port-hub-w-power-adapter-black